WEEKLY SUBJECT 08, chipsets and controllers, RESURRECTING__PAGE TWO

[jtdoom]

part one of page TWO
--------------------
part one of page two

DrMDJ
posted 07-05-2001 06:05 PM
Personally, I always view speed in a computer in terms of "throughput". And many things effect throughput (hardware and software and configuration of these).
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
=========

kallikru
posted 07-06-2001 05:58 AM
When I bought my first PC (in '94 - 486DX2 VLB)) I looked at three different lines of machines built locally by a small shop. I asked the salesman what was the difference between the 3 lines - apart from the price?
I think his answer pretty much gives an answer to your lastest question, goose:
"The difference is the technology. The most expensive line contains all the newest tech. we can get hold of, and each component is tuned to each other to optimize performance. The other lines contain older tech. components that is not entirely tuned to each other."
In reality we of course have to make compromises, since the economic ressorces are rarely unlimited.
------------------
Karl, Denmark
---------
"..and may The Force be with you too..."
==========

greengoose1
posted 07-06-2001 06:56 AM
Good Morning All,
Kallikru, I asked my last question from the standpoint of someone not knowing much and was trying to provide for the reader a point to start from in exactly what determines the "speed" of a computer. A person hears things like: "This is the computer to get as it is the fastest one right now" or "everyones buying this right now".
These are salesmen statements and can cost a person alot of extra money. I remember when the Queen of Hearts built her computer on this forum that when it came time for her to start buying she blew the salesmen right out of the water because they could not answer her questions. She had become knowledgeable from the questions she had asked on this forum and the answers she had gotten from Bistro, Train, Mosaic, oh heck I can't remember all of the people who helped. As a result she has an outstanding computer from what I understand.
The information that everyone has been contributing here is outstanding and a person would pay a good sum of money at a book store for what they get here. The only thing we as contributors need to keep in mind is some that are reading are just starting out and we need to relate to their knowledge position also.
Here is something I found at www.motherboard.com that is interesting.
"Those of you who know personal computers know that the most important major component in the PC is the motherboard. Not the hard disk, not the video card & the most important single component on the motherboard? The CPU, right? Wrong. It's the lowly, hard-working, group of chips known as the "chipset." A chipset for me defines the entire system, because every major component in the system relies on the capabilities of the chipset.
I must recant slightly on the importance of the chipset. Since I am a hardware man, I think in terms of components and circuits. Software developers may be more inclined to think in terms of the major software components, which are the BIOS and the CPU, which are also major hardware components. Saying this, I still believe in the fact that you can tell a lot more about a computer if you know its chipset than from knowing its BIOS or CPU type, since the chipset dictates both of them and you cannot ever upgrade your chipset.
It should also be noted that a chipset is designed around the specifications of the CPU for which it is to be used. In this respect, the CPU must be designed before the chipset can be, obviating the need for technical information transfer between chipset manufacturers and CPU manufacturers. (I made up that word so I can use it again later.) There also needs to be a good working relationship between chipset makers, memory manufacturers, and BIOS code writers. And lastly, the motherboard manufacturers need to be on good terms with chipset manufacturers, BIOS companies, and CPU makers to make a good motherboard and to get it to market as soon as possible."
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow

Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
=========

jtdoom
posted 07-06-2001 08:08 AM
you's talking about Me?
Me? Checking numbers?
Naaah...
you missed me?

Well, something weird was going on.
a router in New York is Down and I cannot get to VDr
Have had to use a WEBanonymiser to get here...
It looked as if VDr dropped off the Earth, ever since yesterday.
and it's my startup page...
I got withdrawal symptoms
anyway.
when I got those SCSI devices, I knew they were supposed to have better data handling than IDE, and this was the era when more coasters were made than anything else.
The AHA2940AU and harddrive were bought a few months later.
Friend of mine wanted rid if this card, as he wanted to upgrade and got himself a new card He wanted somthing that was called adaptec SUMPING super really super wide wide sumping
The card that originally came with my first burner was "sumping 15xx" and I have it sumplace. That burner and scanner were sold in the "clearance sale" period, and was shop DEMO kit, iow, I got high end at low end prices.
Actually, While I am writing this, I am conducting a TEST.
I just started
xcopy32 G:\*.* D:\test008\ /i /k /y /h /e /c
xcopy32 H:\*.* D:\test009\ /i /k /y /h /e /c
where D: is that aging SCSI hard drive, G: is ultraplex40 and H: is plexwriter
These are three SCSI devices, and it looks like its happening
But It doesn tell me if read/writes are simultime...
I see both drive LEDS blink for CD read and I see both dosboxes write to disk
Still don't PROVE a thing.
Question, what's the scoop on simultime read/write on a SCSI channel?
I only had this from "hearsay", and cannot remember ever having read evidence on simultime transactions. But I feel it is a lot better at it than the old controllers from back when I bought this card could handle.
still, with current technology, and burnproof, the average Joe Consumer has no need to get SCSI.
I can also firsthand confirm something DrMDJ told us.
An ATAPI zipdrive does not really slow down the hardrive on that channel.
It will show when you do a copy from the zipdisk to the drive on same channel, tho.
Ditto with ATAPI CDROM readers.
This is why it is often recommended to get a burner and reader on separate channels.
(and you can have more than two channels onboard, or add channels by adding a controller.)
In the the explanation DrMDJ gave he mentioned and explained contention.
That's what this was all about...
Get a motherboard with good features, and good test reviews, which points to a good chipset, and you wont suffer much from malcontention (sic).
when you read comparative reviews, DO look for STABILITY problems the testers encountered.
It only works when it ain't down...
=
I also have a personal rant about reviews and where to find them...
I actually meant MAGAZINES.
For the Flemish, most publications in Dutch have relatively few comparative reviews on the likes of Gateway, Compaq, HP, Dell, Packard Bell (w/i still around in our parts)
Now, when Thatcher signed the fiftythird province contract with Carter, I knew the UK was big
So, for the European Theatre (bizz is war), I like to get the UK publications of PC PRO and PCPLUS magazine, and CT aka Computer Technics (based on a German "MUST have read" zine)
Ziff Davis' PCPRO and PCPLUS have comparative reviews on systems in each publication, and often have a "roundup" comparative review on monitors, on hard drives, and motherboards, soundcards, Videocards. (you name it, they reviewed it)
Why not get a printed publication?
It's easier on the eyes, its better organised, you can hilite stuff, mark it as unsuitable, mark as a candidate, get a few things on an A-list, and then check for availability and pricechanges.
Ziff Davis has a good line of publications if you ask me.
you also find them on-line
So yes, I also use the web to get more data.
The older reviews are found, new reviews are found.
you can check if the manufactor has a forum
You can use a good search engine to ferret out data on the product you wanna buy.
iow, get the FAQs and FACTS
you will find technical specification sheets and manuals.
you can look at them BEFORE you buy, isn't that neat?
(a magazine cannot do that for you)
A magazine will also have a TON of advertisers and their contact information.
Still, where I live, I am usually better off with a retailer. (price and after sales service.)
We's building our own.
But let us not forget good offers with good software bundles.
"Good" as in still usable on other kit when the PC dies and/or has to be replaced.
its your money, you choose.
------------------
added a section I pulled where I wanted us "on track", cuz it was sorta off track.
------------------
it's Yo Diddley's fault...
Kind regards, Jaak

-----------------
part one of page two

[jtdoom]

part two of page two
--------------------
jtdoom
posted 07-06-2001 08:59 AM
quote:

Originally posted by greengoose1:
Ok time for another question. What one thing really determines the speed of a computer or is it just one thing? J

Professor Mockingbird's Answer;
Electrons, and there are many needed.
You don't use them up either.

Jaak>> HUH?
Not so, Babbage used Steam!

Jaak>>
it all interacts!
Bottlenecks determine the speed of the puter.
------------------
Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
========

DrMDJ
posted 07-06-2001 10:09 AM
Chipset is important, wouldn't deny that. But it is the sum of things that ultimately decides what performance you get. The board, the hard drive, the memory, the cpu, the..., all can create bottlenecks and cause other components to not perform up to their capabilities. You can take great hardware and poorly configure it and do the same thing. And you can also bottleneck good hardware with poor software, poor software (including OS) configuration. There just isn't one thing that if you "get it right" then you will be assured of maximum performance, more than someone else might get.
I see both cases all the time: seemingly good hardware that in operation performs worse than lesser hardware with things properly setup, and very well configured systems that are constrained by some (one or more) shortcoming in the hardware area.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
========

greengoose1
posted 07-06-2001 11:15 AM
Hi DrMDJ, Would you pick your chipset first when looking at a Mobo? J
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
========

jtdoom
posted 07-06-2001 01:35 PM
Hi GG1
My personal rant about it...
No, I look at what people want to do with the system, what they expect to do (growth possibility), and what cards or devices they want or can "recycle" without introducing a bottleneck.
And then its an act of balancing
What's the budget...
Please note, I seldom give direct buying advice, and I interact with my fave hardware guru.
As we all know, last system I built was duron 800 on ECS elitegroup K7VA mainboard (got a favourable mention at Tom's hardware and boasts about it on the box...)
I used 128MB CL3 PC133 SDRAM
got a whopping maxtor 7200rpm ATA100 30Gig at the price of a 20GB and put it in.
The reason I wanted a new drive in there was simple, and twofold.
Some months ago I had put an 8GB in the old clunker that got replaced. The old clunker BIOS could handle it.
Now, when other people want to upgrade an old clunker, I can use that 8GB drive, and putting it in their NEW baby would have been stupid. This way they got full speed, plenty space, plus, they also got FULL WARRANTY.
you see, one must consider MONEY/performance/NEEDS
I think people had better also look at decent barebones... or some of the deals MOM&pop stores build around such barebones

Sometimes the local bargain basement deals may be exactly the things to look at.

available CPU options
budget LOW LOW end = VIA cyrix
budget LOW LOW end amd K6-2

LOW end = celeron-2 at fsb66,
then come the more decent low end solutions
-celeron 800 =FSB 100
-duron @fsb 200 has a smaller cache than the celeron 800 @ 100
the memory on the Duron runs at 100, whereas the celeron could be put in a mobo with a hostclock divider and run the memory at 133. IMHO, the celeron COULD therefore be a better buy
look at different pricelists from retailers, they can be on the web... or mail them to you
and they are but a phonecall away.
Don't just look at price !
Axel runs a shop and has regular updates.. Raymond does not regularly update hispricelist on the web.
Rarmond's shop prices are often a lot cheaper than advertised in his web page, and comparable with AXEL or better. Sometimes Axel has the better deal, but AXEL's is 65 miles away....
(gas ain't free, and shipping or COD can be a prohibitive addition to price.)

dont forget to add sales tax where you must
VAT or sales tax is 21 percent over here

some pricing in Belgian Frank VAT inclusive
Intel Celeron 800 mhz cpu boxed = 5.203Bfr (should include COOLER since its boxed)
AMD DURON SOC.A 800 MHZ = 3.025 (without cooler, )
Cpu fan 1.2 Ghz = 544 (roughly $12)
ECS mainboard PIII - sound - agp *4 - dma 100 = 3.630Bfr
ECS soc.A mainboard K7vza( voor amd)- sound - 266 fsb = 4.840Bfr
boxed CELERON + mainboard = 5203 + 3630 + 0.0 = 8.832
DURON + mainboard + cooler= 3025 + 4840 + 544 = 8.409
(that's only 9 bucks difference)
btw, it turns out Raymond beat those prices, and is only two miles away.
=
then you get to the higher end piii or athlon
(there will soon be a new Piii which works on 440BX at FSB 100)
I see mobo ranges from around US$ 100 to 240 bucks
I think the Athlon would need a better board...
Just like i think you do not put a piii EB on an integrated 810
last observation;
upgraders should always consider selling the old system, and getting new kit instead...
so no, I don't just look at chipsets
you want to look at features (needs)
and comparative reviews (stability)
and budget.
don't be penny wise and pound foolish
------------------
Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
==========

DrMDJ
posted 07-06-2001 04:40 PM

I go both ways (no cracks please). Sometime the motherboard is th first thing decided upon, sometimes it's the cpu. Both one of those two is always number one or number two. Different things come in to play depending on the circumstances. Jaak brought out some things.
Proably most people (at least first timme builders will decide on the cpu first, then work from there.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
=========

greengoose1
posted 07-06-2001 08:30 PM
Hi All, Far be it from me to make any comment DrMDJ about....... .
OK, let's narrow things down a bit. I am a beginning builder and I have to choose a motherboard. Now reading what you have said I find on the web a whole lot of configured Mobos that are for sale. And I'm smart enough to find reviews and even benchmarking because I saw someone on VirDr mention it. I am in overload. What do I do? How do I get the straight of it? I am more confused now than I was. How do I proceed? Remember I found VirDr.com beacause I had a problem and someone helped me get it fixed. Now I want to build one - a computer. This is how I would like you to look at it and frame your answers so I can understand. I am new to this so go easy. Now go get 'em gang. You have the questions and the conditions. J J
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow

Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
========

part two of page two

[jtdoom]

part three of page two
----------------------
jtdoom
posted 07-07-2001 07:36 AM
GG1
a beginning builder?
that word has meanings.
=====================
I'm assuming its for personal use, a home PC.
In other words, a gentlebeing decides to build a new PC. That's what this series of threads is mostly about, ain't it?
- - - - -
TIP;
Do not let yourself get confused by the detail thrown at you, and begin with the basics.
What features do you want?
-CONTROLLER-
How many drives and IDE/ATAPI devices you want support for?
how many hard drives?
do I want extras like a DVD or CDR/W and such? An internal zipdrive or LS120 perhaps?
(Keep in mind CDrom readers are ubiquitous, so a CD-REWRITER is a very good replacement if you needed a zipdisk or ls120 to distribute files)
Many systemboards already have connectors (and controller) for 8 such devices. Most people use only three, and later on add a second hard disk.
NIC ON BOARD
do you want/have cable access?
or plan on a small network?
an onboard network interface can come in handy. NIC cards are cheap alternatives.
(what's the price difference with/without onboard NIC)
USB-and/or-Firewire?
- USB is common
(what's this thing about USB version 2?)
how many USB "plugs"? (Folks, if you plan on cable access, forget about using USB for it, get a decent onboard or internal NIC solution instead.. just my opinion..)
- Firewire, it isn't common (yet?)
these things have controllers too...
And, you can get them on PCI cards as well.
EXPANSION SLOTS
NO cable? Want to surf the net?
Even when you have cable access, do you want FAX-modem capabilities? Then you need room for a PCI hardshake modem. (forget AMR, it does not FAX)
We have no FREE web based FAX services here, and I never heard of cableFAXmodem?
JEESH, I found a hole in the market... J
Sound on board? Or do you want to mix your own? A home sound studio on a card?
AGP slot? What type? (you don't plonk a $300 gamer's wet dream in a 1x/2X agp)
SVGA graphics on board? What do you want? Would it meet my need?
(AGP on board, does it have its own memory?)
TV capture/radio card
In short, how many expansion slots do I need.
(for a new system, forget ISA)
Many people never fill them all, but those that want to put something in there, and find they have NO slots left are unhappy customers. So it's better to have some room for expansion.
(You can put a second controller in there as well)
What CPU type? What memory type?
(now, that could just as well have been at the top...)
- - - - -
When you read the comparative reviews and see a board in YOUR RANGE which is said to be stable, hilite the chipset types and other such details.
Evenso, when reviewer LABs test, they often test both inside and out of specification.
Kallikru mentioned it, and the review will explain what they did to test.
Also, a motherboard could be stressed by a high end CPU, yet prove very stable with a lower end CPU.
That's something Raymond also mentioned during the friendly banter about what to pick for these folks.
We could go for a cheaper board for the DURON (and it did get the fave review.) and still be sure it would be stable with the DURON, or shell out for a somewhat more expensive board he had tested with a high end athlon, which would require a better system case as well. (he did ask, will they ever put a faster CPU in? Which is a question every seller should ask, and he told me he thought the cheaper board handled it, but when he had stresstested one, it got unstable. He mentioned he used same memory modules in the better board.)
When you have a guy like Raymond to talk to, you know he knows his stuff.
Not many retailers stresstest and try blow components to kingdom come before they put it in a houseline.
He often does. It explains why he is confident in his choices
You want a nerd, a geek. Not a cardboard salesperson, you won't regret it.
Hehehe, ask the Queen of Hearts
Now, that board does accept athlon, was cheap, and would have to run a duron. You bet it is stable.
The chipset it has is capable enough.
A higher end may have a better chipset version, or better tracing layout, better tolerances in components, or whatever it is that made it more stable at higher freqyencies.
In this particular case, there was little point in getting a more expensive board with same features
and it got decided by the CPU, and a knowledgable retailer tipped the scale.
Notes
Whatever I tell here ain't gospel
I am but a hobbyist, a mechanic by trade, a tinker if you will.
I've built my own for a few years now,
When good friends ask help in upgrading machines, I sometimes wind up with their old kit.
I explains my having seen quite a bit of stuff, it also explains my limitations
There IS first hand experience involved, some educated guessing gets thrown in at times, and when I misunderstood a concept I read about, the second-hand explaining may suffer.
So there. It is caused by My Flemishness.
------------------
Yo Diddly, come from the voodvork out!
Diddly, Please?
[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 07-07-2001).]
=========

greengoose1
posted 07-07-2001 01:39 PM

Hello All, Thanks for the layout on building Jaak.
As you have noticed this thread is moving slower. As you may have observed there have been many posts and some by new contributors that have been fairly long and detailed. This gives everyone time to digest what has been written since chipsets are very important along with BIOS, the CPU, and the rest of the Mobo. These at least have to be working or you don't have a thing on your monitor. There's of course a video card requirement but we haven't got there yet
==============

kallikru
posted 07-07-2001 07:27 PM
gg1,
"..These are salesmen statements and can cost a person alot of extra money.."
As a matter of fact, this particular Saturday morning the "salesman" was a technician from the backroom, who didn't like much being put up front because none of the others cared to work on a saturday (It was a very small shop).
Since then I've remembered my talk with him from time to time and come to realise that he wasn't really that far off. Sometimes a smaler change will yield results in terms of speed that doesn't measure up to the investement. Choosing the different components carefully will often save you a lot of dispair and hair....
But of course you are completely right that one should not put too much trust in a salesman - after all, he's "only in it for the money...other peoples money...". And that, I guess, is one of the reasons of VDr's success: The need for unbiased answers.
Well, in 7 hours I'm off on 14 days of vacation - going to see what's between Vancouver and Toronto. So I'd better get some sleep - it's a long flight.
------------------
Karl, Denmark
---------
"..and may The Force be with you too..."
==========

[jtdoom]

part four of page two

greengoose1
If they divert you to Dallas-Ft Worth, let me know.
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
kallikru
..been there - too hot..but if you stumble across my luggage please return it home. It nearly always takes a vacation on it's own...
'night.
------------------
Karl, Denmark
==========


DrMDJ
posted 07-07-2001 07:54 PM
Wow! things sure are calm around this thread.
Anyway, you asked a question GG1... Rather than necessarily answer it, let me make a couple comments related to it.
I've said it before, Jaak said it. Don't get bogged down in all the details and such. The novice builder (or typical home user) does not have to get/have the fastest of the fast, best of the best, biggest of the big. They simply will not benefit from it. When looking through the maze of hardware there will be many features and differences found. But most of them are only going to be that important to certain people doing certain things. There is no (keeping with the subject of this thread) "one" board that is going to be right for the typical home user/builder. A lot of boards will be more than adequate for their needs.
GG1 mentioned reviews and such. One thing to keep in mind when looking at the imformation found at most of the hardware or review sites is that it is generally geared more toward the likes of the more serious enthusiast, professsional, overclocker, etc. Often an analysis is given with a slant towards those looking to push hardware to and beyond its limits, to modify hardware, to subjext it to extreme use conditions. These sites may talk about the stability of a motherboard or cpu, but not when run/used under "normal" conditions. They'll talk about how stable a board was at an FSB of 141mhz. Or they'll discuss processors being "locked", or how to unlock them. But these types of pros or cons are worthless to the typical home user. Why? Because they're only going to run their system under "normal operating conditions". It doesn't matter if a such and such Asus board provides good overclockability, lots of settings, etc. Not when these aren't things the typical person will use or need.
My point (above) is that a lot of the different features, pros and cons, one may read about at various sites need to be discounted. Not because they aren't true necessarily, but because they are not applicable. What one needs to do is weed through that and look for more basic info. In the case of something like motherboards, info indicating general stability, how easy a board may be to work on or not, the number and type on disk controllers it has, whether it has onboard sound and/or video, the number and type of slots (PCI/ISA), and any findimental problems sighted in terms of design, functionalitly, etc. Look at the basics. Look for the things a board has that meet your needs, the basic needs. Provides the slots, accomidates the processor you will be getting, etc.
Now obviously, the only real way to make heads or tails of all the information and options is to learn about the things being talked about. And a place like this is where that can start. But there is a lot to learn (and continuing to increase). And a lot of it is not simple. It's not going to happen following these threads or reading a few articles around the web. There's no shortcuts unfortunately. If you want to be able to do certain things, understand certain things then the time and effort will have to be put in. But I would contend that the typical person and first time builder doesn't need to invest in knowing all these thing, getting to far in to things. They need to know enough to put together a system that meets there needs resonably well and is reliable.
It may not seem like this provides an answer to the question asked. But it's kind of an answer of sorts.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 07-08-2001).]
============

DrMDJ
Have a good vacation kallikru!
------------------

Jtdoom posted

Hi,
lets get this thing on track
Chipsets
robles pointed us to a few good sites on them
he began;
They have been called super I/O controllers.
They handle IRQ's and communications on the motherboard.
Here are some links to get things starded.
On chip sets - index
Chipset Guide
Chipset's: Via & AMD, chipset reviews & information
Tom's hardware Chipset Guide
OS2 hardware info/pci_chips
(which is mostly about older kit, and the kit would support NON-OS2 operating systems as well)
the PCguide on System Chipset and Controllers
where you will quickly lose your way if you do not look at the leftside o/t pane.
plenty info there, tho.
let's add one link here
INTEL chipsets
----

We should perhaps talk about capabilities, and what it means.
For instance, when the CC820 desktop board came out, they had made it possible to use both SDRAM and RDRAM on the mobo, and some of these boards had problems (NOT all).
the problem was around a version of the Memory Translator Hub, which was needed to be be able to access two types of memory.
(sidenote; the boards that had the MTH issue were replaced by intel, and they threw in a 128MB RIMM and CRIMM.)
anyway, RDRAM or rambus hasn't been abandoned yet, (albeit they no longer do the RIMM/DIMM "mixtures", which got rid of the need for dual capability MTH).
We also know DDR or double data rate RAM.
The chipset will have the component which makes communication with that type of memory possible.
So, the chipset is the main determining factor in bandwidth, along with the memory used.
The memory you can use, depends on both chipset and the type(s) of memory banks soldered on mobo.
an exerpt>
184-pin DIMM: DDR RAM requires a new DIMM connector on your mainboard, unlike the 168-pin DIMM connectors used by SDR RAM; new 184-pin DIMM's will be needed. All new mainboard with the VIA Apollo 266 chipset or other chipsets which support DDR RAM will have this new connection. Some mainboards may even have both SDR DIMM's and DDR DIMM's. Either way you are going to need this new connection to use DDR RAM, most Celeron and Pentium III users with mainboards any older than mid last year wont have a DIMM connector on their mainboard, which will support DDR RAM.
<
I used the word "bandwidth"
which also applies to USB and firewire, and AGP, and memory bus.
A serial port has little "bandwidth", they rely on the UART component.
A parallel port has higher "bandwidth" than a serial port
"bandwidth can be referred to as data throughput/per second"
Those old style peripheral ports are relatively slow..
USB is faster, and firewire is faster still (what's that beef with USB II?)
Those are still peripheral buses.
AGP and memory Bus bandwith will greatly affect the speed your new PC can operate in.
Our good DrMDJ used the word contention.
I've often said most CPU are overkill.
You'll not hear me say to go for a poor motherboard with low bus bandwidth.
When you have a poor motherboard, you will often get contention. (one thing waiting for the other to finish)
Maybe the CPU gets deprived of data.
Hmmm, it will sit there idling most of the time anyway. On the other hand, what would happen if you have a high end mobo, with hi end firewire periferals and very fast disks, a high end graphics card, and the CPU is "underpowered?"
When you throw a huge task at it, it will become apparent wether your system is well balanced.
When tasks you throw at it take an awful long time to finish, you may think the machine is underpowered.
not always so...
it depends on the type of task...
Any of you guys ever wonder why a PC grinds to a snails pace when doing things on a FLOPPY?
you wanna test if a PC can handle something without crashing?
try this.
open a mulipage document, open a dosbox too..
pop a new floppy in (one you know you can format without risk to data)
you could first get to the proper directory (to try option 2 of below)
cd\
cd windows\command
now, start printing, and immediately get to the dosbox and run
format a: /u /s /autotest
which works from anywhere, or (option 2) run
bootdisk
1
y
see what happens while the machine has to multitask this...
option 2, bootdisk, makes your EBD.
(some machines don't have the files.)
this was a harware multitasking thing.
and a Piii EB600 with 256 RAM will take its own sweet time...(at least it don't crash...)
How can this be?
The things used in this test are windows, DOS in protected mode, floppy controller (slowpoke) and parallel printer (another slowpoke) (I cannot do this on an USB printer as I don't have one)
But why would that make the other operations (cable surfing on a NIC, writing txt in a document, or on VDr...) grind to a halt at times?
when your machine can handle it without crashing, be joyful.
(IMHO, the lowest piece of crud some OEM throw together should also be able to do it...)
chipset, controllers, contention on available bandwidth, the OS, and the drivers for all that stuff, may make that test succeed or fail...
yes, it all interacts.
yes, plenty food for thought. let the thought come...
It all interacts.
And reading this, don't be fooled. I still don't know Diddly
------------------
[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 07-11-2001).]
==========

part four of page two

[jtdoom]

part five of page TWO
---------------------
greengoose1
posted 07-08-2001 09:13 AM
Good Morning All, I didn't know I was off track. Must be the weekend activities.
greengoose1
posted 07-08-2001 04:26 PM
The reason we have these threads is to provide information. One thing that happens is you learn more about your computer, which in turn will allow you to operate the computer more efficiently and get the most out of it. But there is of course another thing that happens and that is you will be able to troubleshoot your computer.
We are discussing chipsets and controllers on this thread. How do you troubleshoot the chipset and controllers? How do you know if a chipset is bad for instance? Let's see these are part of the motherboard. That would indicate that troubleshooting the Mobo would be what should be done. The following article from PC Guide goes into just this subject.
"There is an apparent failure of the motherboard or a system device on the motherboard
Explanation: There is suspicion of a possible failure related to the motherboard. This can be a result of a specific message strongly implicating the motherboard in some sort of erratic system behavior. It may also be the case that the motherboard probably isn't the problem, but that we want to rule it out as a possible cause. Since the motherboard is where all the other components meet and connect, a bad motherboard can affect virtually any other part of the PC. For this reason the motherboard must often be checked to ensure it is working properly, even if it is unlikely to be the cause of whatever is happening.
Diagnosis: Outright motherboard failure is fairly rare in a new system, and extremely rare in a system that is already up and running. Usually, the problem is that the motherboard has been misconfigured or there is a failure with one or more of the components that connect to it. Getting a system in the mail that has a loose component or disconnected cable is very common. In fact, though, there are a surprisingly large possible causes for what may appear to be a motherboard failure.
Recommendation: Follow the suggestions below to diagnose the possible failure of the motherboard. You will find a lot of possible causes listed below, since there are so many problems that can make it look like the motherboard is at fault. This part of the Troubleshooting Expert is referenced by a large number of other sections. For this reason, you may want to skip some of the steps below if you have already tried them elsewhere. Also, try to avoid the very difficult diagnostic steps--especially replacing the motherboard--until you have exhausted the other possibilities both here and elsewhere on the site:
First of all, if you have just recently installed this motherboard, or performed upgrades or additions to the PC of any sort, read this section, which contains items to check that may cause problems after working on the system unit.
If the PC isn't booting at all, make sure you have at least the minimums in the machine required to make it work: processor, a full bank of memory, video card, and a drive. Make sure that all of these are inserted correctly into the motherboard, especially the memory. Partially inserted memory modules can cause all sorts of bizarre behavior.
Remove all optional devices from the motherboard, including expansion cards, external peripherals, etc. and see if the problem can be resolved.
Double-check all the motherboard jumper settings, carefully. Make sure they are all correct. In particular, check the processor type, bus speed, clock multiplier and voltage jumpers. Also make sure the CMOS clear and flash BIOS jumpers are in their normal, default operating positions.
Reset all BIOS settings to default, conservative values to make sure an overly aggressive BIOS setting isn't causing the problem. Set all cache, memory and hard disk timing as slow as possible. Turn off BIOS shadowing and see if the problem goes away.
Double-check all connections to the motherboard.
Check the inside of the case to see if any components seem to be overheating.
Inspect the motherboard physically. Check to make sure the board itself isn't cracked; if it is look here. Make sure there are no broken pins or components on the board; if there are, you will have problems with whatever component of the PC uses that connection. Check for any socketed components that may be loose in their sockets, and push them gently but firmly back into the socket if this has happened.
Make sure the keyboard is inserted correctly into the motherboard.
A failed cache module or using the wrong type can cause motherboard problems. If you suspect it, troubleshoot the secondary cache.
An overheated processor can cause system problems. Try troubleshooting the processor.
Troubleshoot the system memory. Memory problems are often mistaken for motherboard faults, especially on systems that don't have the protection of using memory error detection.
Try troubleshooting the video card or replacing it with another one, preferably a simple straight VGA card that is known to work from being in another system that functioned properly.
If the power supply is older, or this is a cheap case, or you have added many new drives to a system with a weaker power supply (especially one that is less than 200W) then you may have a power supply problem. You may want to try replacing it.
You may have a BIOS bug or other problem. Check your manufacturer's technical support resources for any known problems with your motherboard. Check on USEnet as well.
Contact the technical support department of your system or motherboard manufacturer for additional troubleshooting information. If this is a new motherboard, you may want to consider returning it for an exchange if you have exhausted all other troubleshooting avenues.
Some newer viruses, when activated, overwrite part of the BIOS code in systems that employ a flash BIOS. If the BIOS is corrupted, the system won't boot. See here for ideas on recovering from this.
Try swapping the motherboard with another one and see if the problem resolves itself. If it does then the original motherboard is probably faulty, but it could just have been misconfigured or installed incorrectly."
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow

Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
===========

greengoose1
Good Morning All, For any of you with questions or comments, now is the time to make them known.
We have covered chipsets and controllers pretty well and tonight we will start a new Weekly Subject on RAM.
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
=============


DrMDJ
posted 07-09-2001 07:04 AM
In looking at these threads and pondering it a bit I'm thinking it might be better if the content of them took a slightly different turn.
The original slant of these topics was (and still is to my knowledge) to (primarily) assist the "relative novice" in building a PC. I do not disagree with the idea that it is logical to discuss info related to diagnosis and tuning in regards to building. However, IMHO it might be better if this kind of information was treated under one or more seperate threads instead of being merged in to each "component thread". I think the flow would just be better and a little more logical. I think there should be a progression, from planning, to selection of components, to installation, to troubleshooting, to tuning.
At this stage of the game I consider us in the "selection" phase. Therefore, we should provide info and opinions on what a components role and importance is, things to consideration, what's worthwhile, what makes something good or bad, any things we think or know should be avoided or classified as "must have", etc, etc. Info that helps one select the particular component (as per the thread topic) that's best for them. Information outside this scope just seems to confuse the issue. There's no reason that when the topic relates now to, say, motherboards that "everything" related to motherboards needs to be discussed. Not in the selection phase. Other non-selection info can be discussed later on. And logically, in the building process, it would be. One does not know what can go wrong or how to fix a problem when they are buying a component. I guess the bottomline of what I'm trying to say is that when component name "xyz" comes up in a topic it does mean "everything" about it must be discussed them. Things can be revisited, revisited from a different perspective later.
Just expressing my thoughts on this. I really don't mean to sound like I'm bitching or being overly critical. I was just trying to step back for a minute and look at this all. Trying to be helpfull, constructive. Maybe I'm alone in my thinking here. If I'm off base, then fine. It would be good to hear other people's opinions. In fact, I think it would be very helpfull if at this point people (contributors and lurkers alike) would offer (via posts) their thoughts on the structure, content, level of detail, etc, found thus far in these threads. I know GG1 that you have received emails. But it would be nice if the info was out in the open, and there could be some dialog.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
=============

part five of page two

[jtdoom]

part six of page TWO
--------------------
greengoose1
posted 07-09-2001 07:18 AM
Hi DrMDJ, You must have been reading my mind on getting comments etc. I think maybe a straw poll would be in order. The reason of course is to make these threads as good as we can or we are just spinning our wheels. If this the type of information everyone needs and can use, great.
If not, then we need to know what can be done better and what better place to get that but from our readers.
Therefore when you, whoever you are, read this today, how about a comment on these threads. We would certainly appreciate your input on what you think. Thanks
=============

DrMDJ
posted 07-09-2001 07:45 AM
GG1,
Glad we're in sink. A straw poll would be a good idea. As you say, the idea of all this is to be helpfull. If the needs aren't being addressed or not being addressed properly then it needs to be known. People must have opinions on things like the content, level of detail, applicability to their needs of the threads so far. In particular it would be good to hear from those who just read or contribute sparingly. In fact even seeing the level of response would be usefull (some indication of who cares, how many people are using these threads). Without some sort of formal feedback it's a guessing game.
Hell, if people for a reason want some anonymity and don't want to use their regular vdr ids, they can creat a temporary one to post.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
==============

bistro
posted 07-09-2001 12:14 PM
At the risk of being redundant (and also repeating myself), I would like to repeat something that I repeated a while back so I wouldn't sound redundant....
The only "critique" I would have to offer is to watch the "information overload". While the long posts are quite informative, perhaps if they were broken up into bite-size pieces (a few paragraphs) they may be more easily absorbed; and/or provide links that the reader can choose to read or ignore (hopefully not ignore) . J (Now...this may not always be available depending on the subject matter). However, don't OVER-simplify (of which I am guilty).
Offering a short explanation of acronyms, tech terms would help the target audience (has this been clarified?). I don't think it would be insulting those who already know the terminology, if they understand that the threads are for "Everyman".
Have to realize that some subjects can go into quite long lengths---can discuss them for days on end and keep coming up with new perspectives. But at some time there is a point of diminishing returns and/or you are in danger of losing the audience. (Attention span).
DrMDJ's 3rd paragraph (post above last one)--concur. J
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 07-09-2001).]
greengoose1
Thanks Bistro.
Where ya been vacation?
bistro
Nope. Just sitting back and reading the posts. Occasionally offering my saggy...er...sage advice.
DrMDJ
posted 07-09-2001 08:37 PM
Bistro,
I agree with the comment on overload. I for one will work on trimming my long (ie saggy posts) down.
GG1,
I might be inclined to leave this thread open and not start a new one as intended. For one thing I don't know whether everything that might be covered here has been. For another the feedback as yet as been a bit lean.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 07-09-2001).]
===========

bistro
...and I'll try to beef mine up. Often try to make them too general and leave out pertinent details.
============

part six of page two

[jtdoom]

part SEVEN of page TWO
---------------------
greengoose1
posted 07-09-2001 08:52 PM

Hi All, We'll leave the thread open for a while as you suggested DrMDJ. Leave things on simmer if you will. I have been surfing a number of different web site forums and have found all of them slow. And you can see it on VirDr as well. It's vacation time.
I don't think it's a problem as most of us aren't going anywhere except on vacation, maybe. I'll be leaving myself on the 28th of this month for the high country and a little fly fishing for a couple of weeks.
We'll just flow with the stream so to speak.
greengoose1
Hi All, well looks like we are still on simmer and flowing with the stream.
Nite All.
DrMDJ
Simmer? I think the flame went out.
greengoose1
posted 07-11-2001 06:52 AM
Good Morning All,
DrMDJ, Will probably be like this until after Labor Day. Slow with vacations and all.
We can ease along with this thread or go on into RAM.
Chipset and controllers are a bigger subject than I thought once we got into it. Thoughts?
============

jtdoom
posted 07-11-2001 04:44 PM
just been rereading, I for one could use a kind editor, galleys and proofreaders...
I also seem to not always get what I have in mind properly across.
this comes out after what one wrote is no longer fresh in mind, and rereads it.
It explains the edits.
all in all, there is plenty good info here, and in my opinion we have not been too technical yet. It's technical, but not too detailed..
how come one board has AGP4 and another only AGP2?
do PCI bridges have different capabilities/speed? (I really wonder about this)
does PCI to ISA bridge slow the system down when no ISA cards are used?
where are the geeks?
is there a geek holiday resort? J
------------------
Yo Diddly, come from the voodvork out!
============


greengoose1
posted 07-11-2001 07:22 PM

Well, we've let this thread "simmer" for a couple of days. Think it's time to start in again.
As we go into the various parts(components of the Mobo (motherboard), I think we should keep in mind where what we happen to be talking about fits. It helps to keep a person oriented.
The chipsets and controllers we have been talking about have not been covered completetly to my way of thinking, but on the other hand there is a lot of info here concerning them.
Jaak, what do you see we have missed since you just reread this thread?
===========

DrMDJ
posted 07-11-2001 08:26 PM

GG1,
I agree with you and Jaak that there is more to be said about the subject at hand here. I would leave the thread going (even if things are slow). I know the titles say "Weekly Subject", but there is no reason they have to conclude weekly. If the slowness is in fact vacations then I for one would suggest we slow things down, maybe even take a break.
But, something is terribly amiss here. If people are actually reading these threads now then I find it almost impossible that there has been not a single comment here (when there has been a call for comments). Summer or not there are still people around here, you see them posting. Yet nada here. People who have participated in these threads have now even seemed to stop. If all that's happening now (for what ever yet undertermined reason) is we're talking in a vacuum, talking amongst ourselves then the value is gone. Dialog is critical to these threads, but we're not getting any.
Thoughts?
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
============

DrMDJ
posted 07-11-2001 09:17 PM

My only problem with writing things off to shyness is that people are not shy in other threads. I agree (again) with Bistro about most people not wanting all that much detail. In fact, it may well be most want "very" little detail. Maybe all people really want is the answers to "what should I get?" and "how to I put it together". But it's tough to tell what people want if they don't say so (catch 22). We can change these threads to what ever is desired (assuming the threads are still desired), but not without knowing how.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
===========

greengoose1
posted 07-11-2001 10:24 PM

I believe you are on the right track and we do have a history to look back on which would also include the Operation Delta Threads.
I think first we should qualify this by saying we are looking for the best way to do this. We have, if you reread, done this.
We know that most people come to these forums looking for immediate answers. They want to get their computer back up. Out of those are people that discover they can learn here on VirDr. And they start reading and lurking. There are several that verbably said they waited upwards of a year before saying anything.
Many of these people are fast. Hit and git types. This is a fast medium. If you notice the regulars are sharp.
Take a look at the previous paragraph for example. Four short sentences with a lot in them.
And these are people with big hearts and they like to have fun while they are interacting with each other. And they will help anyone who asks. This is also a pressure relief valve on these forums for the stress that is in most of our lives.
Thereore I suggest this, which is also a challenge in writing, to answer the questions quickly and to the point and have a little fun at the same time. Maybe we have gotten to staid and serious. Now for someone asking a more serious and deeper question, certainly go deeper. Try this - How What Why Where and When - you all know this. Answer these questions. Go deeper when your asked.
We are trying to help people to enjoy their computers more quickly, not become design engineers. We can help people get aquainted with their computers where they can operate them well and then they can add more and more knowledge if they wish. Are we trying to give to much to quickly? I believe we are.
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow

Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark


======== =========== ========== =========
that was all of page TWO

------------------
Yo Diddly, come from the voodvork out!