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Operation Delta 2
We are starting a new thread for Operation Delta as the first one is getting to big. Prologue - The Queen of Hearts and I sort of drifted together for this project because of a common goal. "WE WANNA KNOW" more than we do now and to each build a computer. Baisic criteria was we had to learn alot before we built and have fun while we were doing it. Other members encouraged this effort. Finally the Queen of Hearts made the pronouncement - "Lets do it". We have barely survived the first full week due to infomation overload. For all of you that read this, please read over our first thread and if you find that you can add to or have questions do NOT be afraid to jump in. There is a wealth of information that has been inputted by various members. To all of those we say thank you.
See here for Operation Delta
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 12-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 12-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 12-02-2000).]
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Queen of Hearts, I did it. Made one mistake in the URL, I put in 00033 and it should have been 000303.
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I have seen the hard drive ! https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
It was pretty furry. No wonder I didn't see it. Got the canned air and have cleaned out the inside of the case.
Now watch..... something'll stop working. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Keep the dust you found in there! Put it all in a baggy and when you get enough, you can weave it all together and make an anti-static mat for your computer....(just kidding). http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/silly.gif
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I cleaned mine when Mosaic had me check cables etc. awhile back. Bistro said we need 300 watt power supplies and I'm wondering if that is counting a good reserve in case something comes along that would add to the power requirements.
You know, I wish I had found this site before I bought my off the shelf PC. It would have saved alot of grief. But then without the PC, I wouldn't have found this site. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Right as always, Mosaic, thanks for pointing this out.
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300 watt will pretty much handle all the component requirements for a filled-up mid-tower; 350 is even better. If you're planning on a full-size tower and fill it up with every component known to man, better go for 400 and up. A lot of folks make a mistake when upgrading their existing systems by not considering the power supply(PS). They add all sorts of components, but never consider how much more power they need to run them--kinda like plugging too many appliances into the same extension cord. Then one day, they're getting all kinds of problems that appear to be software/hardware related. Turns out they're overloading the PS. A lot of cases come with 230 or 250--which may be adequate, but why not spend the extra $10 for a 300W and know you're covered?
Won't post it here now, but I have a list of power requirements for most computer components where you can add up the ones you have and compare the total with what you have installed---might shock a few people.
Later....gotta go to my daughter's b'day pool party------yessss...it's an indoor pool https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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A article on Ram. http://www.sourcemagazine.com/archive/600/feature5.asp
Motherboard article that I like. http://www.sourcemagazine.com/archive/700/feature1.asp
I am digging also.
Queen_of_Hearts reference Gill would you believe England, how about crossword puzzles? best answer is both https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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SMILE
[This message has been edited by Train (edited 12-02-2000).]
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The dust makes excellent dumpster fodder.
Remember, the closer to the floor the more dust it gathers. My experience.
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SMILE
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Queen of Hearts - From the info so far, a mid tower case, 300 watt ps, then choose a mobo. Then add the rest from there is what I've come up with so far. Sound right? The subject of the mobo is interesting. Everything revolves around this it seems. Very important. I think, as you said once, look at evrything and then put the money where it will do the most good.
So far I have not come up with a local tech. I live 90miles NW of Ft Worth in the boonies.
Probably have to do this all "long distance".
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Mobo names you can check: Soyo- www.soyousa.com - my pick would be the Soyo 6BA +IV or 6BA+100
Tyan, Abit are also good.
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greengoose1
Check wichita Falls. Brother-in-Laws say they are there.
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SMILE
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One thing I have picked up lately is that Via tech usb is not very good. Like the bottom of the ladder. Something to consider if you want to use usb attachments like I do.
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SMILE
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yeah, Train's post there reminds me...have seen quite a few posts on the other forum from people who are having problems/conflicts with Via chipset-based mobos---consider this when looking around.
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OK
So far I have read your links, Train, on the Motherboard.
I wish I knew the glossary was there before I read it. They should have put that at the top.
I had heard about the motherboards which have the sound and video included and thought that may be a kill two (or three) birds idea but now I have changed my mind.
From what I also gathered you have to already have decided which processor, before you choose the motherboard. So,
I need to be contemplating that more seriously.
Your's is next, bistro. I remember that thread on the Win 98 forum about the power supply you posted. I can dig that out. It think was in the last month.
One decision I have made so far is what to do with the dust.
I am combining it with dryer lint and using it for pillow stuffing. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
[This message has been edited by Queen_of_Hearts (edited 12-03-2000).]
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Mix dryer lint, computer dust in melted paraffin and you have a fire starter.
[Listed in Boy scout and Girl scout handbooks]
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SMILE
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Remember that any sharing take away from the RAM. Very important to me and my graphics https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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SMILE
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Found it bistro.
Train,
Sharing ? As in the combination sound/video/motherboards ?
Hey.... recycle candle drippin's too ! Now, that's killing three birds ! https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Great, I wake up this morning and find out first thing I forgot about Bistro's post on power requirements. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Had I remembered that I could have answered my own question on power supply requirements. That is in the file now. I checked out the Soya 6BA+100 and one thing that stood out was dependibility and the price seemed ok.
Train, Wichita Falls, is 60 miles north of me. Will check out. Anyone in particular that you might know of?
I go to review and study now. Later.
Oops, almost forgot. Is there a guideline for sharing?
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 12-03-2000).]
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Queen of Hearts, Going over Train's post that referred to RAM and motherboards, I found the relationship of the processor, RAM, and hardrive not entirely clear so found This.
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 12-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 12-03-2000).]
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greengoose1
They did not say any place in particular, Just that they had taken their mom's computer to a good shop. She liked the outcome. Sorry, but the best I can do.
Queen_of_Hearts
Sharing ? As in the combination sound/video/motherboards ?
Yes, A sister's machine video card uses 4 Meg of Ram. That leaves her with 28 of 32 Megs and the cpu has to do all the work.
My video card has 8 Meg and does part of the video work so that takes part of the load off the cpu. I am thinking of 32 or 64 Meg one down the road. A lot of the New ones out have problems, and I will be staying away from the ones that get posted here at vdr. {my thoughts are they are to much trouble https://discussions.virtualdr.com/]
The more your components can pick up, the less load on the cpu.
Hope this makes sense https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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SMILE
[This message has been edited by Train (edited 12-03-2000).]
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Hey Train, so you are saying some of the boards come with an effective memory that takes some of the load off the primary system? Now, on RAM, how much is how much from your standpoint?
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Well, with ram there is a point that can be reached were you get low performance gain for money spent. With windows and word prossessing programs going from 32Meg to 64meg on a 5oo MHz cpu will yeild about 98% increase. Worth it, yes.
64 Meg to 96 Meg will yield 6% increase.
So, 128 would be about the upper limit.
Now with photo editing the story changes.
Base of 32 meg remember.
32 to 64 130%
32 to 96 180%
32 to 128 205%
32 to 192 250%
32 to 256 270%
So, there is a corolation(sp) programs and ram, cpu speeds and ram.
I will edit in the link for this info.
Edit:I printed all the pages here and the results are about 1/2 inch thick. http://www.rammatters.com/
Lots of pages in other words https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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SMILE
[This message has been edited by Train (edited 12-03-2000).]
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As far as graphics cards, 32 mb is the way to go (takes a load off your CPU). There are 64 mb cards coming out, but price-wise they're outrageous. I'm not familiar with any home-user app or game out now (or in the near future) that would require that much video memory. Beware of fantastic frame-rate claims. Your eye is not going to pick up a frame rate difference of 10, 15 etc. between cards. TNT2-based cards are excellent, but it's looking like GeForce 2 may be becoming a "standard" now. No need to go overboard cost-wise, but remember it's worth spending a little extra for the video card; especially if your into gaming and/or graphics production. Remember the quiz on Monday.... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Bistro and Train, What we are trying to do is bring in a system pretty much based on the info you and the rest have given us. Mach said $1400 would bring in a good system. You have given us enough info to realize that we could do better than that initially if we use , for example, our present monitors and printers and maybe bring in two CPUs that are strong for say $900 to $1000. Then we could replace and/or add to the periphials. We need from what has been said, a good power supply, a midsize tower, an excellent mobo, lots of RAM supporting a strong processor, followed by the hardrive(s). We can be behind the latest stuff on the market which hasn't really been tested which allows us to go for strength of operation and dependability. We are not so much interested in the big bad games. There are of course some things that haven't been mentioned here like fans, CDR-ROM, cabling etc.
Realizing the amount of material we have received does instill a bit of apprehension concerning the test this Monday, Bistro. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 12-03-2000).]
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Oh ! AND maybe add one of dem fancy neutered mice! https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Queen of Hearts, See Email.
Mice?? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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OK.....QUIZ TIME!!!! All questions based on what you've been reading for homework...You have 5 minutes....BEGIN....
1. What 3 basic types of cases are there?
[list=a][*] Mini, Midi, "Big Honker"[*] Economy, Mid-size, Luxury[*] Mini-tower, Mid-tower, Eiffel-tower[*] Do you grade on a curve?[/list=a]
2. What do I need to do FIRST before working inside the case?
[list=a][*] Place my finger in a wall outlet to
make sure I'm "grounded" [*] Wear an anti-static wrist strap, but
only with formal evening wear[*] Make sure it's booted and running, so
if I do something wrong I'll know right away... [*] "I don't wanna go in there...it's too scary..."[/list=a]
3. How many threads will it take to complete "Operation Delta"?
[list=a][*] Enough to wear out 5 keyboards[*] Only 3...with a LOT of good links...[*] Only 50...with a LOT of bad links[*] Depends on what you mean by a "thread"[/list=a]
OK....pencils down...HEY YOU THERE! I SAID
"PENCILS DOWN!".
I'll check these out and get your scores back to you sometime when hell freezes over or shortly afterwards..... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 12-04-2000).]
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Congratulations to Queen_of_Hearts for passing the initial quiz of "Bistro's Computer Demi-god Certification Course"!
Now...after all that, we've pretty much determined certain things:
1. You need a mid-tower, ATX-type case
(even if you don't have enough components/drives to fill it--you want room to expand).
2. You need an ATX (type or "form factor") motherboard that will support a 450 or better CPU and at least 128mb PC-100 RAM and supports ATA 66 (faster hard drives); and has an AGP slot for the video card. AND STAY AWAY FROM "BUILT-IN" VIDEO AND SOUND MOBOS!
3. You need to determine if your current sound card, modem and hard drive(s) are adequate enough to be able to wait on replacing/upgrading them (you can probably get away with using your current floppy drive). If not, check out the Soundblaster Live! sound card series--figure out which one you can afford (they're all good). Is your modem a 56K? Could probably wait and just use that one. Is the hard drive you're using now adequate? If not, get a 7200rpm ATA-66 hard drive 15 to 30 gig (15 is plenty for regular home use; word processing, games, etc.---30 gig if you need some archiving room for graphics, etc.)
4. New CD ROM? 10x or above, you might want to keep it until you can afford an upgrade. If yours is a 6-8x, might be time to replace it. Consider getting a 8x CD-R/RW or, if you're not interested in making CDs, perhaps a Kenwood 72x CD-ROM drive.
More to think of....("Oh, nooooooo...") https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Bistro, I have to confess, I'm B A D, 'cause I copied off of the Queen of Hearts.
B
A
D
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Greengoose1, thank you for your honesty. It's refreshing to know that some of my students out there have enough character and intestinal fortitude to come forth with all honesty and truthfulness.....but I'm flunking you anyway for copying answers... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Pencil comes flying straight for my forehead...
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Hey...just a heads up....won't be able to post anything tonight--working on my system---having some minor problems with the BIOS (bad flash I think). So, if you have anything specifically to me, can't answer back until tomorrow---but Train, Mosaic1 or some other folks may be reading and be able to chime in with some good info. (I don't want this just to be "The Bistro Show". Lots of experienced people out there who have something to share).
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That's fine. Come to think of it, we haven't heard much from Mosaic lately 'cept when we start to drift (there is a difference between drift and drifty). And your right, all ideas from anyone and everyone sure helps getting a better product.
I keep forgetting to ask this. We have to buy an operating system for this unit do we not? Which adds a little more in cost.
And, is it feasible to tie in our present unit as a warehouse for info (more memory etc)? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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If all you have is a propietary "recovery" disk, then yes, you'll need to buy the OS. If you have a Win 95 CD, then all you need is the Win 98 SE Upgrade CD.
Not sure what you mean in your second question. If I understand correctly, you can take your old hard drive (if it's has sufficient space) and use it as a slave to the new one. Should be of sufficient size to put the swap file on it, and perhaps an image of the primary hd. If your current hard drive has a factory-installed OS, and you don't have a Win 98SE CD, DO NOT try to "clone" the old drive onto the new drive in an effort to save all your programs.. Won't work right. Better to do a clean install.
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I have two Compaq Restore Disks and the Win98SE that came with the computer and the 98SE won't completly install. Always stops 22 minutes into the disk. So I downloaded updates from MS updates to compensate.
On the unclear point. Is there a way to tie both computers together so you could have your backups on the old computer.
Just trying to keep a resource utilized.
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I'd go ahead and just get a full version of 98 in that case--save yourself some grief in the long run. Yes, you can network the two computers together; archiving one to the other, but that's a different project altogether.
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Hello,
I've been following your post(s) for quite some time now. And finally decided to give you my double penny's worth.
My history with 'puters only began a short two years ago. After much naggin' from my daughter to join the "computer age", i decided to give it a go. I had "no" idea where to start. After much research, i decided that i did "not" want an "off the rack" unit.(too proprietary). My daughter gave me a list of what she thought would be good for a starter unit and i hit the local computer shops. Then the "learning" really began!! If there ever was a line of merchandise that the words "caveot emptor" applied to,computors are IT!! I won't go into detail with what i wound-up with, but as it turned out, i paid top dollar for a unit that was ok, but, the internal components were on the verge of being outdated. I realize(now), this is not
unusual as fast as things change in the computer industry. But "then" it hit home pretty hard as i began to learn what it was going to take to catch-up and have a decent machine that would do what i wanted,and be upgradeable with a limited budget.
I think enough has been said about cleanliness and being aware of static discharge and the careful handling of components. So, onward and upward into the fray!
I must say that my past history includes auto repair experience concerning electrical components as well as re-building carburetors and such. So, i am not a stranger when it comes to cleanliness and paying attention to details.
My interest was also bolstered by the fact that i am now disabled and can no longer do my regular work. But, there is nothing wrong with my dexterity or mind and repairing/building 'puters has been a godsend to keep from "climbin'the walls" https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
To shorten this up a' bit, let me just say that i eventually swapped-out all the components on that first box with upgrades a step at a time until i was comfortable with what i was doing. A key word to remember is "research". Not only for the "how-to", but also, where to buy and how to find the best components at the best prices and from re-sellers that you can trust. And, after gettin' screwed a' couple of times, i can't stress this point enough!
So, over the past year and a half, i've built 12 units for friends and relatives and "their" friends an' relatives. And now,(finally https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ ),here is my recommendation for a unit that will do all you ask for, and "will" be upgradeable for quite awhile with no major changes.
The "box"= In Win A500 ATX midtower with 300watt(powerman)power supply(this box also has a slide-out Motherboard rack for easy mobo and AGP/PCI card installation).
The Motherboard= ASUS A7V Vers.1.02(without onboard sound)supports "socket A" CPU's(AMD). I've come to realize this is the form factor that will be around for quite awhile and "i" prefer AMD to Intel for several reasons(too lengthy to go into here,but,do your homework)(AMD Duron's 600to750Mhz are my choice for this board,and can be upgraded to the T-Bird 1.2GIG CPU later on)It's an overclocker's dream board,but,also very stable and rates right up there with Abit and the rest.
Video card= ATI All-in-Wonder 128 PRO 32MB.( a very good choice with TV,Video chips to run your DVD player without a seperate add-on card).
Sound card= Creative Sound Blaster Live! Value 1024 PCI will do nicely.
Hard Drive= Western digital and IBM are good choices at 20to30GIG's. Just be sure to get the 7200Rpm drive.
DVD player=My choice has to be the Hitachi 12X internal Atapi IDE drive
CD R-W Drive= Gotta' go with the best here. Plextor 8X4X32. The 12X8X32 is on the market now,but fairly pricey as yet and the 8X4X32 is an excellent unit.
Floppy= not much to say,just go with a good brand name.
Peripherals= Your choice,but shop carefully and my suggestions would be Epson(740) for a printer and Visioneer(one touch 7600) for a scanner.
OS= I prefer to use Win98FE with upgrades from Micro$oft. But, if you have to purchase "now",Win98SE.(but, watch very closely for "whistler" which will be out in 2001.
Oh yeah,don't forget a "good" case fan(3 wire model can be attached to Asus Mobo for monitoring by Asus Probe)One more thing. Be sure and get a "good" surge protector(NOT a 9.95 special)It pays to protect your investment!
Well, this was a lot more than two pennies worth https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ ,but hope it helps in making your choices. A couple of reliable places to shop: www.allstarshop.com www.egghead.com and be sure to check-out "whoever" you want to buy from at www.resellerratings.com
Onward and upward my friends!!
'Nuther "edit" https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ as to "RAM", go with a good brand, 128Megs of PC133(prices are excellent right now)
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When in doubt,,pull the plug!!
[This message has been edited by snarfll (edited 12-04-2000).]
[This message has been edited by snarfll (edited 12-04-2000).]
[This message has been edited by snarfll (edited 12-04-2000).]
