Format, FDISK, Etc;

Hi all! PC is Hewlet packard. Operating sys. is Win 98.
i'm trying to reinstall win. 98. The pc is my son's. it just quit working.
when I try to format C drive, Error message is [ format not supported on drive C.
When I try to run [setup] with win 98 startup disk, at he "a" prompt I type setup,[this always worked before], i get error message: cannot create a temporary directory. If you have HPFS OR NTFS, Installed on your hard drive, you will need o create an ms-dos parition to set up windows.
When I run FDISK to set up a partition, it says no fixed drives present. what can I do to remedy this ? Its like the hard drive isn't recongnized
also, i checked all the connections inside, & all look "ok" I even changed positions on the "ribbon"
Thanks !

If FDISK isn't seeing your drive, then something has actually failed: Either the HD itself has quit, or the cable is funky, or the connection is bad. If you change positions on the ribbon cable, you'll probably need to reset a jumper on the back of the drive that determines whether it is the Master or Slave conneciton. (Master is on the END of the cable, and slave is in the MIDDLE of the cable).

But, try reseating the connections first (check the power connector to the HD as well), then if that doesn't work, try a new cable, if still no go, the drive may have actually failed.

You'll have to be able to FDISK to get any further with the drive regardless...

If after trying shiva_42's suggestions and still no joy go to the Hard Drive manufacturers site and get their diagnostics and run it.

Good luck

No, No, No.
Nothing has failed.

"Format not supported on drive C. Format terminated."
Problem is:

Format tried to format the drive and the drive specified is a RAMdrive.
A RAMdrive is a bunch of memory locations on chips masquerading as a hard drive.

The message is the result of a format c: command when the hard drive is set to "not installed" in CMOS and the RAMDRIVE.SYS driver loads for ramdrive from the floppy disk. The Format.com program was on a bootable floppy disk.

Is the hard drive recognized in the BIOS?

Thanks all! Turns out that it was the "hard drive" I installed one from another pc, & it fired right up!

The error message can be seen with the circumstances I described.
Just because a new drive is working does not prove the old one was not.

The message appears when a floppy has been booted from with the format program available on it, and the RAMdrive driver was loaded by placing a reference to the driver in one of the startup files on the floppy.
When no hard drive is setup or installed with the BIOS CMOS setup program,
The RAMdrive driver loaded from the floppy grabs the first drive letter available....drive C.

The old hard drive probably was not correctly set up in the BIOS/CMOS.

There is rarely anything wrong with a hard drive...regardless of what error messages indicate or lead you to believe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

The error message can be seen with the circumstances I described.
Just because a new drive is working does not prove the old one was not.

There is rarely anything wrong with a hard drive...regardless of what error messages indicate or lead you to believe.

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Well... I'm sure the circumstances you describe CAN and even DO happen. But, "there is rarely anything wrong with a hard drive..."

PREPOSTEROUS!!! ;)

"Thanks all! Turns out that it was the "hard drive" I installed one from another pc, & it fired right up!"

I think the above comment is enough evidence to conclude that the original HD was LIKELY the problem... :D

Wrong again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

Format tried to format the drive and the drive specified is a RAMdrive.

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Yes, you are correct. Trying to boot a PC -- with no recognizeable hard drive -- from a standard bootable Windows 98 Setup diskette and the RAMDRIVE will end up being drive C:. You are also correct in the fact that a Microsoft RAMDRIVE.sys cannot be formatted via Microsoft's FORMAT command. But, that's not the underlying problem.

Problems:

1. When FORMAT failed with "format not supported on C:", it means that the hard drive was not recognized on boot.
   
   
2. When the Windows 98 Setup failed because it "cannot create a temporary directory", it means the drive cannot be written to, (because there is no recognizable formatted partition -- see next problem).
   
   
3. When FDISK failed with "no fixed disk present" this also means the hard drive is not being recognized.

In other words, the underlying problem to all three of these scenarios is that the hard drive is simply not being recognized.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

There is rarely anything wrong with a hard drive...regardless of what error messages indicate or lead you to believe.

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Aw now, com'n Robert, I know you know better. :)

All hard drives will fail.

Hard drives are mechanical beasts, with constantly moving parts. The drive platters are spinning on their bearings at somewhere between 4,200 to 10,000 RPM, while the heads, with their pivots also mounted in bearings, are constantly being yanked back and forth across the platters to read/write data.

All of this mechanical movement causes friction, and friction causes both heat and wear. Too much heat causes electrical components to fail. And, when the inevitable wear finally reaches a severe enough stage, the hard drive will no longer be able to spin its platters and/or move its heads.

If it's mechanical, and you use it, it will fail.

Well, first of all I was responding to the original poster

With regard to point one:
It means that the hard drive might not be setup correctly in BIOS/CMOS.
Nothing more and nothing less.
Whether it's recognized or not is a function of whether it's setup properly or not in the BIOS/CMOS setup.

With regard to point two:
That's correct and I was already aware of that.

With regard to your third point,
It means that the hard drive might not be setup correctly in BIOS/CMOS.
Nothing more and nothing less.
Whether it's recognized properly or not is a function of whether it's setup properly or not in the BIOS/CMOS setup.

The most important thing is the original poster's data.
If the drive is good, (and I say it is) the drive can still be read and written.

By the way, I think a drive can be "recognized" with an incorrect capacity if BIOS/CMOS are not correctly set and do not match the drive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

It means that the hard drive might not be setup correctly in BIOS/CMOS.

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Bingo! :)

Trying to explain 6 posts later after "it's fixed" just amazes me.
Not unusual. I'm amazed by most everything. :D

Well Nick, if you were the person who started this topic....
.....Would you throw away the original hard drive, the one that was not properly setup in the BIOS/CMOS setup?

If not, wouldn't you also try to recover the data?

Yes, but apparently he's not interested or he would/should have responded. Ya think? Just struck me funny that you all may be talking to a wall. :D

If a drive has physically failed then it won't even be detected in the BIOS, I wouldn't count that as not being set up correctly in BIOS.

Technically you could argue that that is the case, but realistically if you can't even see the drive in BIOS, you have no chance of 'setting' it up do you ?

Using your argument, if you don't even have a drive installed then the problem is that you have not set up the drive correctly in the BIOS. The fact that it's not even present is apparently irrelavent ?

Nix, sorry to say but you are wrong.
You can set up a hard drive in the BIOS/CMOS setup on my computer manually at ANY time, whether a hard drive is physically installed or not, and whether a hard drive you have physically installed has failed (with a head crash for example) or not.

You can also set a hard drive which has been properly installed physically using the correct jumper setting, power required etc and working beautifully previously to "Not Installed" in the BIOS/CMOS setup. Thereafter, it will not be accessible.

Yes, you can set the CHS information up manually in the BIOS to you hearts content, but if the drive has physically failed or is not present then it's not going to do you any good is it.

The original poster was advised that the drive had probably failed which if it is the case, no matter of setting CHS info will change that.

Your first post asserted that the drive had not failed and the inference was that the CHS information was set incorrectly.

Even after we were advised that a new hard drive had been installed, you still argued that it was all about CHS settings and that "There is rarely anything wrong with a hard drive...regardless of what error messages indicate or lead you to believe".

Subsequently the discussion seems to have centered around the ability to set CHS settings manually in the BIOS - which I agree can be done, but as I stated in my first paragraph of this post, if the drive has physically failed or is not persent will not do you any good will it ?

Of course if you have some way of setting CHS values that will ressurect a failed hard drive or manifest an otherwise not present hard drive then I'd be moer than happy to hear of them.

There is no indication at all that the drive has failed.

Setting it up in the BIOS/CMOS setup correctly either manually or by autodetecting it will help determine if it is OK or not.

If the drive has a problem it will probably generate some kind of error message (besides the one already discussed related to the inability of the format program to work with a RAMdrive) ....as long as its setup in the BIOS/CMOS correctly.

Nix, you also said
"Of course if you have some way of setting CHS values that will ressurect a failed hard drive or manifest an otherwise not present hard drive then I'd be moer than happy to hear of them."

A fixed disk not present message reported by the fdisk program can be eliminated by setting up a hard drive in BIOS/CMOS.

...and what does moer mean?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

A fixed disk not present message reported by the fdisk program can be eliminated by setting up a hard drive in BIOS/CMOS.

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but not if the drive is physically dead or not present.

I also don't believe you can autodetect a dead drive or one that's not present as the BIOS won't see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

...and what does moer mean?

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more - just my bad spelling as usual.

Yes, to clear the "not present" message, the hard drive needs to be physically installed in addition to being setup in CMOS.


A drive that was previously set up correctly in the BIOS/CMOS setup should continue to be setup in the BIOS/CMOS setup even after it fails...

I'm not sure if a hard drive which is physically dead (for example a drive that suffered a head crash and can no longer be used) will be auto-detected assuming it is powered, cabled correctly and the attached IDE electronics are intact. I think it CAN be auto-detected by letting the auto-detect function execute the "identify drive" command using the BIOS/CMOS auto-detect command if the electronics on the board attached to the drive are OK. I think drive information is available that will report to the auto-detect program and help set up the drive because it is embedded on the circuit board.

And..as a side note, a head crash is the way most hard drives actually fail when they do fail. For example, the electronics on the circuit board will fail far less often.

So therefore, I think a failed drive can be auto-detected in many instances while in BIOS/CMOS setup even if it has failed with a head crash and doing so may help you determine if it has.

well fwiw, im not a wall and found it interesting lol.



i was refering to this quote
"Yes, but apparently he's not interested or he would/should have responded. Ya think? Just struck me funny that you all may be talking to a wall. "

Just a sincere attempt to try and bring closure:

All of these "arguments" have merit, and the discussion has been very interesting, but I think the most important elements of the original poster's issue are being overlooked in an attempt to defend a perspective that, although technically correct, PROBABLY doesn't apply to this thread - let me digress:

1) The technical points about CMOS/BIOS and HD interaction is specifically correct, BUT - since the original poster said that a new HD was plugged in and immediately fired up and worked, it's MOST likely that the HD parameters in CMOS/BIOS were ALREADY setup as "autodetect", thereby detecting and using the "new" HD with no interaction from the user. This means that the CMOS/BIOS settings were MOST LIKELY ALREADY set to "autodetect", so the continued discussion about HOW to setup those parameters, and WHEN it's important, and WHY it makes a difference, are probably moot.

2) If the spindle bearing doesn't rotate, the HD can't be detected by the hardware.

3) If the head has crashed, it MAY or MAY NOT be detectable by the hardware in the PC, it depends totally on what still works and what doesn't work in an individual drive.

So... just to be reasonable and logical, it's most likely that the original HD in fact DID fail, and the MB was already setup to autodetect HD's, and that's why when the new HD was connected, it immediately worked with no further intervention necessary on the part of the operator.

The discussion about RamDrives, CMOS/BIOS setup technicalities, and other deeper points was very interesting and valuable, but doesn't appear to apply to this particular situation, and continuing to defend that view is just misguided. IMVHO!!!

I say the original hard drive is most likely OK.

I have 3 old HD in my cupboard.

I might pull one out and drive a stake through it's heart and then plug it into my system and see what bios does.

Well if you avoid the chip where the embedded information about the hard drive is contained when you drive the stake, it will probably respond to the "identify drive" routine started from the BIOS/CMOS setup.

Then you can brag to your friends and have all the correct information about what the storage capacity of the drive was.

By the way, I think you should read or re-read the Acceptable Use Policy of this forum.
Here is an excerpt from it:
You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

No one's posted anything false or inaccurate yet that I can see. I never thought hard drives could die, either, but after opening my mind I realized I was mistaken. ;)

Everything mechnical will eventually wear out and fail.

Hard drives are mechanical.

All hard drives will fail.

lgbpop,
It is misleading to say that a hard drive has most likely failed when there is absolutely no indication that it has. I never said that a hard drive couldn’t die, you need to re-read the postings in this topic. You also need to re-read the Acceptable Use Policy because you are also obviously trying to mislead.

SpywareDr,
I never wrote that mechanical things do not wear out. I know they do.
It is misleading for you to imply otherwise.

I never wrote that hard drives are not mechanical and it is misleading for you to imply otherwise.

And I don’t claim that hard drives last forever; if I did, I wouldn’t have advised many people in these help forums to always back up there data before starting projects.
You also need to re-read the post. You also need to re-read the Acceptable Use Policy.

http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...43#post1020943

Quote:

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01-12-2006, 01:47 PM

Robert M

There is rarely anything wrong with a hard drive...regardless of what error messages indicate or lead you to believe.

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From post #7:

Quote:

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The error message can be seen with the circumstances I described.

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Quite true, but misleading to insinuate those are the only circumstances that will trigger that message.

Quote:

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The old hard drive probably was not correctly set up in the BIOS/CMOS.

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An assumption that was proven misleading when the HDD was replaced without changing the CMOS/BIOS.

I don't know why you have to insist someone did something wrong, or had wrong settings. The problem was solved to the owner's satisfaction, that's the important thing.

Lastly, I don't mislead people. That involves work. I don't like to work. ;)

There is no indication at all that the drive has failed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

There is no indication at all that the drive has failed.

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An FDISK error message of "no fixed drives present" can most certainly be an indication of a failed hard drive.



http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...56#post1020156

Quote:

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TROJANaire

01-10-2006, 11:42 AM

When I run FDISK to set up a partition, it says no fixed drives present.

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http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...56#post1020856

Quote:

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TROJANaire

01-12-2006, 08:42 AM

Turns out that it was the "hard drive" I installed one from another pc, & it fired right up!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpywareDr

An FDISK error message of "no fixed drives present" can most certainly be an indication of a failed hard drive.



http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...56#post1020156 http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...56#post1020856

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SpywareDr,
There's no such message generated by FDISK that I know of.
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
Are you a hard drive salesman working on commission or something?

The best way to determine if a hard drive is OK, is trying to set it up in the BIOS/CMOS. Since there is no indication by the topic starter that this was tried after the message relating to the RAMdrive, I say your argument does not hold a drop of water and the drive and more importanly all the user files and data are probably OK.

I say:
Enter the BIOS/CMOS setup, execute the "identify drive" command and see what gives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert M

SpywareDr,
There's no such message generated by FDISK that I know of.
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
Are you a hard drive salesman working on commission or something?

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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...22&btnG=Search

If I had $10 foor every time I have seen that fdisk message, I could buy a new AMD FX60 based computer for all of my kids and my grandkids. And I imagine SpywareDr could get more computers than I would be able to.

Ah good to see this one's still going.

Haven't had a chance to 'kill' that spare HD as yet.

Hmmm.
I wonder if Microsoft changed the message generated by FDISK from their earlier versions of FDISK.

I thought the message from the Microsoft FDISK utility was one of the following:

No fixed disk present
or
No fixed disk(s) present

but not:
No fixed drives present