Odd Hannging Problem

It's an HP Pavilion 6305 (AP) 256 MB Memory W98 SE. The problem has come and gone (for a week) over the last month and seemed worse since the last MSN upgrade. It seemed to temporarily fix itself for a week with the third last McAfee update so I thought it might be a McAfee problem but it's back again.

It has started freezing randomly (no keyboard response) and usually only a power switch off will fix it. When I run the Amidiag (American Megatrends) diagnostic DOS based program yesterday it also hung the first two times at two different points (said Winmodem was faulty and the CPU was a 36 Mhz processor instead of 366. and then froze) Third, fourth and subsequent attempts it ran OK. I ran the advanced DOS based diagnostics in batch mode all day and it worked fine did not freeze and found no faults.

It also seems to run OK if I can keep it going for and hour or so without doing anything ie boot up and leave Windows desktop open and open no programs. However if I do otherwise and I reboot 101 time after 101 freezes it keeps playing up.

All this seems to point to some hardware problem; something that works OK after its been running uninterupted for a while but I am open to suggestions.

It also seems to have excessive activity after windows is loaded and the desktop opens but CTRL,ALT, DELETE Norton CrashGuard and various bits of software that show the running processes reveals nothing new. MCAfee virus scan has found nothing. While I have Zone Alarm Outlook came up with a popup yesterday that said a program was trying to access my address book and that worrired me.

I have tried reinstalling McAfee, Outlook, IE and MSN but there has been no change. Also ran SFC, Win Doctor, Speed Disk, Reg Clean, etc etc. The CPU and Power Supply fans are spinning and ambient temperature doesn't appear an issue (dies hot or cold)

My next move will be dismantle it and reseat every board and chip etc. Next will be to but a new CPU and Motherboard but if it will have to be cheap at the moment; I'd rather wait to get a fast setup but if its the CPU or MB that at fault my current liquidity will mean a bargain basement barebones 1500 Duron and PChips MB.

Oh something I just thought of:next try will be to use my old rescue disks to see if a month old version makes any difference. Will try after I log off and report back if I have any success.

Before doing anything drastic, get rid of Norton CrashGuard. IMHO, that is an unstable product that (in other threads I have read) MAY cause problems like you encounter.

Hope this helps.

I agree with ralph3124...disable Crash Guard, run the computer for a few days and see if the problem disappears.

The concensus among geeks and techs who know far more than I is that Crash Guard causes far more crashes than it prevents.

"The concensus among geeks and techs who know far more than I is that Crash Guard causes far more crashes than it prevents"

Yup. It has been suggested, only half jokingly, that Crashguard was secretly developed and inserted into Norton's CD's by their main competitor, Mcafee, to make Norton look bad. It succeeded, lol.

Here's a WAG for ya. Try removing the Modem card and see if you still have the problems.

QUOTE:
It also seems to run OK if I can keep it going for and hour or so without doing anything ie boot up and leave Windows desktop open and open no programs. However if I do otherwise and I reboot 101 time after 101 freezes it keeps playing up. [UNQUOTE]

There seems to be a little fractured syntax in that last sentence. 101? Playing up?

Computers are strange and weird. - I think the problems most of us have with stuff like this is related to hardware, or software, rather than the computer itself, or the OS.

Also, I am one of those who have had bad experiences with Norton Crash Guard.

Tried the modem removal trick but still hangs. Last crash destroyed my user profile and all my saved passwords and put Virtual Dr on the blocked cookies list so I had some fun getting back here to post a reply. The PC Chips MB has a built in moden so I guess if I go that way I can do a few modem comparison tests.

Nortons CrashGuard has always behaved itself for me but I have killed it to see if it solves anything.

"While I have Zone Alarm Outlook came up with a popup yesterday that said a program was trying to access my address book ..."

I overlooked that when I read it the first time.. it's probably worthwhile to do an online a/v scan here to be double sure that you don't have a virus lurking in the background..

http://housecall.trendmicro.com/

Thanks while I have McAfee installed and I check for an update each time I log in and I have run it's online scan it's worth trying another source.

Well I left it conncted to the 'net and running the Trend Micro virus scan overnight and it didn't hang and no viruses found. I need to do more to find what crashes it. After reading the PCChips Mobo reviews I've been put off that option.


PS: Can someone tell me how to remove the extra "n" from the post heading; it's annoying and will make it hard to find it again with the forum search facility.

After running reliably all not doing the virus scan and working from 6 am (Perth West Australian Time) it died at 8:00 am exactly. How does one tell if ones dial up ISP is pulling the plug on you? Would this cause the system to feeze? I also had a problem that on boot up Outlooks sound had gone but on third reboot they reappeared; weird.

All the freezes/crashes seem to happen when CPU usage is at max if that's relevant. The CPU fan and it an its heatsink are working and firmly attached.

Reseating sound an video cards, which you said you were going to do, will mean reinstalling drivers which would have been the next thing I'd suggest. Also running in safe mode for a few hours to see if that makes a differnence and could point to something running in the background causing the problem.

I've never seen being disconnected by the ISP causing a freeze but you never know.. try setting up your email program to check more often (every nine minutes) to show more activity on line so the ISP doesn't kick you.

OK I seem to be making some progress. The much maligned Nortons has its uses. Its seems something is running periodically in the background. Not all the time though; it seems to stop from 2 am to 8 am. User resources will suddenly plummet for know or obvious reason and if I have a few windows open already this locks the system up. If I just leave the machine on and touch nothing it will do this every 30 minutes or so.

I have both Lavasofts Ad Aware and Spyware Blaster but I suspect something is sending something somewhere. Perhaps a legitimate program where I have switched some polling arrangement on and forgotten as there appears to be no virus. As whatever it is runs for less than a minute then closes I can't find it if I look at running processes. Any ideas of how to track this down.

There is nothing that shouldn't be in startup unless something illigitimate has renamed itself as one of my long standing start up programs. I have Zone Alarm, Tclock Ex, Best Power, TweakUi, Startup Monitor, UPS/CheckUPS II, 3D Savage Balster Video, Nortons Image, McAfee, Nortons Cleansweep, Nortons Protection, my MS track ball, Hp printer scheduler, MS keyboard and the onboard Crystal Sound installed as Start Up programs.

Yes a bit I know; but its always been there (plus other thinks like Norton Crashguard which I have taken off).


Also now have Max Memory in an attempt to avoid the freeze (doesn't seem to help so it will go).

Aussie:

In looking over your last post, I suggest that you disable TClock, and all of the Norton Group. You may have a raging war going on between Norton and McAfee. Norton progs have an inherent problem of setting their own times regardless of what you want. This may be causing your disk activity.

Also, if Norton is doing a virus check and McAfee comes on line, one might be trying to out do the other.

Try this. This will take some time and will require a lot of reboots.

Take you computer off line (disconnect the modem, so you do not get any viruses), run msconfig and diable everything there except for Explorer (including systray), look in you sys and win files and rem anything with "Load" in front of it and then reboot. Once you reboot check what started (<Ctrl> <Alt> <Del>).

The only thing that you should see is Explorer. If so, load it up with a program that will tax the system. See it it will lock. If no lock occurs, enable each program in msconfig, one at a time until the lock occurs. Now remove the first prog that you enabled and see if the lock occurs. If no lock happens, then you found it. Go through each program. You will eventually find it.

Pau.

I don't have Nortons Anti Virus and only have the McAfee antivirus software and they have together OK up to now. I am also reluctant to turn of the UPS software as it often crashes without it (everytime the washing machine or freezer switches). I am working the other way at this point eliminating several or single start up program one at a time and seeing what happens. I guess I will work down to zero and then back again.

Hi aussie..

Sounds like electrical problems. even though you have a UPS (powersupply?) the problem could be also grounding. I'm not sure what you aussies use as standards, but good grounding should be investigated. As you have mentioned when the power is reduced when the fridge or other appliances come on.. messes up your system. You could also be having minimal power provided as we call a brown out. thus you system has minimal power anyway.

Its may be best to install a a new outlet dedicated to the pc. away from the other appliances and depending upon codes drive in a new earth ground connector.

hope it helps..

mach

Hi Mach the grounding and wiring (240 Volt) is fine its the quality US made G.E. Fridge and washing machine that's the problem (perhaps because they were designed for US/Canadian homes). But I love these GE products they're heavy duty and last forever.

See if it works ok in Safe mode.
If so, then do a clean boot to troubleshoot it:
http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;Q192926

If the problem still happens in Safe mode, then it's most likely a hardware problem.
Make sure only default settings are enabled in BIOS, remove the computer's cover and clean out any dust, remove and reseat the memory a few times and try it in different slots, make sure all fans are running, and run an external fan with the computer's cover off.

It been getting worse and worse but in desperation tonight I ran McAfee clinic first aid on line. Didn't seem to find anything particularly significant but it seems to be working 100% so one of the changes it made must have worked.

Only problem is in the process McAfee Clinic wiped out Nortons Clean Sweep (perhaps that was the problem or did it just decide to eliminate a competitor?). I have reinstalled from the CD but now Norton's online updare won't recognise that it needs updates or that it registered and it won't let me register it. Oh well I guess at least the computer is working now.

If you keep or start having trouble again, you can goto.....

http://www.lurkhere.com/~nicefiles/ and get,

StartupList

Unzip it and run it.

Copy and paste what back in this thread what is found.

Hi there Aussiblue

It's been pretty hot here this last month and not the ideal climate for our super charged machines (over 40 degrees C where I am).

Have you checked your CPU temperatures in the Bios? Do you have a case fan? Have you added any new hard drives or CDRoms lately? How many Watts is your Power Supply?

Overheating is easily overlooked.

Yes I have considered that but it sits under a large air conditioning duct and seems to fall over regardless if it's hot or cold. Still I'm thinking of a bigger box and power supply anyway so we'll see what happens when I do that. Case/PSU and CPU fans are OK.

I had exactly the same problem you did - intermittent system freezes, no response to keyboard, mouse, not even the power on/off switch.

I found a clue on TechZoneZ.com pointing to the possibility of a problem with my display driver.

I found that my display driver was almost three years behind current so I downloaded and installed the most recent version.

My troubles went away!

I had three URLs that gave me trouble. Here are they are together with the results when I accessed them with the new display driver in place:

http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sh...threadid=130428 exact same problem as mine on virtualdr.com - found testing virtualdr.com link which previously froze system.

http://www.virtualdr.com/?virtualdr.com did not freeze - but did produce blank screen.

http://www22.brinkster.com/nssitech/index.html did not freeze - screen had scrolling news ticker which may have challenged the old display driver. Internet Explorer News button on the Links bar shows hour glass when cursor is put over it. At bottom of page indication is that 7 items remain to be loaded.

Business and ecommerce search results for "detect spy software" ... the third problem URL did not freeze - but produced a blank screen.

Spyblocker detected bugs on these screens.

Something interesting about the two URLs that produced the blank screens; after I've copied either one onto the clipboard for use in the browser, when I close WORD, a pop-up message says I've placed a large amount of text on the clipboard and asks if I want to save it for use in other applications! These URLs aren't a lot of text - so there is something strange about them.

All seems to be well in terms of stability of the browser. Appears that Zone Alarm is exonerated!

Hope this works for you!

Thanks Toronto but I had no problems with any of those URLs and there is no pattern. BTW it's back again although seemingly not as bad as it was. I going to buy a new case with extra fans and another power supply and see if that changes anything.

Well my HP is now in an "Icute" case with 7 fans, 2 thermometers (I have put one on the CPU and one on the Graphics processor on my video card), 350 Watt power supply. I have also fitted a bigger fan and heat sink to the CPU. The CPU temp (sensor is sandwiched between CPU and heatsink) floats between 28 degrees C and 34 degrees C. The graphic chip ( sensor in the heatsink thins of the Savage 4) climbs slowly to 30.8 degrees C from 27 degrees C and stays there. So all within specs.

I have a headache from the noise of 7 fans (8 with the CPU) and think the wind output from the case is giving me the flu but it does seems to be working better although it has hung once so far. I guess come our winter I'll disconnect a few fans.

I resisted the urge to spend another A$50, over the A$150 I shelled out for the Icute case, to get the pretty coloured neon light but the transparent case is handy (I can check the CPU fan is working and which cable is hitting which fan to make yet another irritating noise). I might just bung a few LEDs on some of the spare power cables.

It turns out I spoke too soon about my problems being fixed.

After I replaced my video driver I was able to view all but one of the web sites that induced the systems freeze. The site that is consistently able to induce a systems freeze is www.giga-byte.com . Whenever I click on the Products or Company tab the system freezes while trying to open another IE window. (I'm planning to have a Gigabyte motherboard in my next computer.)

The only application that I've had open while trying use the Gigabyte site has been Internet Explorer. Because I was using IE 5.5 I thought the problem might be nature's way of telling me to move to IE 6 SP1. I went to the Microsoft site and learned that I would first need to move from Win NT 4.0 SP5 to Win NT 4.0 SP6a, which I did. I updated the new versions of NT and IE with all the available security patches.

The problem persisted! I still, consistently, get the dreaded systems freeze on www.giga-byte.com

I also went to www.discover.com (a science magazine) to renew my subscription and when I clicked on Customer Care my system froze. There's something that happens when I activate those links that my system can't handle. Just can't figure out what it is.

Any suggestions?

I have a headache from the noise of 7 fans (8 with the CPU) and think the wind output from the case is giving me the flu
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LOL and ROFL :D
Now that! is a mean machine :cool:

I thought you might be interested in some articles I've been collecting to help my machine run better/faster/smoother.

Some of it has been hotly debated so I've kept all the info that appears to have worked for me.

Hope it helps.
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SPEEDING UP YOUR COMPUTER
On the Desktop, Right-click on My Computer and select:
Properties\Performance tab\File System\Hard Disk
Then choose Network Server as the Typical role of this computer.

While you are there go to Properties\Performance tab\File System\CD-ROM and set the Supplemental cache size to Large and Optimize access pattern for Quad-speed or higher. Then click OK.

Click the Graphics button and set Hardware acceleration to Full and click OK and Close.
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SWAP FILE Virtual Memory can cause a lot of debate so you should be the judge as to its advantage. Setting the minimum and maximum size of the swap file to the same number stops Windows from resizing the swap file. You can expect Windows to use in excess of a 200 MB of your Hard Drive for its swap file when playing games.

How To Tweak - Install System Monitor first to find out the average size of your swap file. Go to the control Panel and select:

1) Add/Remove programs\Windows Setup\System Tools\Add System Monitor
2) Run System Monitor\Edit\Add item\Memory Manager\Swapfile size\OK.
3) Leave System Monitor open and go about your day as normal
4) Check what the Peak Value for your Swapfile size was.
5) Go to Control Panel\System\Performance\Virtual Memory.
Click "Let me specify my own settings".
Set the min and max value to double the peak value from step 4.
6) If you have a spare 200MB Hard Drive spare, this could be used solely for
your swap file.
7) Restart the computer.
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NETWORK ADAPTERS In the Device Manager remove any Network adapters that you dont use. Click OK and re-boot if Windows says you need to.
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GRAPHICS Right-click on your Desktop and select Properties\Background Tab:
In the Display drop-down box select Centre or Tile. (The Stretch option slows down your graphics.)

Screen Saver Tab:
If you need a screen saver use only basic savers that came with Windows.

Settings Tab:
Click on the Advanced button and check that you have the correct Monitor installed. If not click on Change and follow the prompts to install the correct driver.

Then Check that the correct Adapter is installed. If not then click on Change and follow the prompts to install the correct driver. The correct refresh rate will also improve performance. (You will need your monitor manual to find out the best refresh rate) Click OK

In the Colors drop down box choose the lowest color depth that is acceptable to you. (16 bit and especially 32 bit slows graphics down)

On the Screen area slider select the lowest resolution that is acceptable to you. The lower the pixels the faster the screen refreshes.

Click OK and re-boot if Windows says you need to.
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CLEAN THE REGISTRY Now go to Start\Run and type regclean and click OK. If you get an error and it wont run then you will need to download Regclean.exe from the Internet and copy it to your C:\WINDOWS directory.
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TSR's Next are all the programs that are running in the background. These are activated in the in the Startup Folder and the System Registry. If you don't need them then un-install them with the Add/Remove Program which is found in the Control Panel. Otherwise you can temporarily disable any or all of them by going to:

Start\Run and type msconfig and click OK. Select the Startup Tab and remove the tick next to any or all of the items listed, click OK and re-boot.

Removing these ticks will not harm anything and if something doesn't work just go back into msconfig and replace the tick(s). If you don't know which program each line is for you will need to do it by trial and error.
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Download a Spybot program and an Adware remover from the Internet and run them often. Don't forget to update their definitions regularly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------SCANDISK monthly to check the integrity of your files and folders and repair cross linked files go to: Start\Programs\Accessories\System Tools\Scandisk
DEFRAG your Hard Drives monthly to keep your Hard Drive(s) running efficiently.
Go to: Start\Programs\Accessories\System Tools\Disk Defragmenter. This will take some time! (several hours with very large hard drives).
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HARDWARE When upgrading.. some components are faster than others. Ask a reputable dealer about the speed of the Hard Drive, CDRom or RAM that you are buying as some brands operate at different speeds to others.

You need at least 128 mega bytes of RAM for Windows 98 to run efficiently. RAM is faster than Hard Drives so the more RAM you have the less Windows will have to access the swap file on the Hard Drive thus speeding up your computer.

A better Graphics Card will also help things along especially if you are into games. While your computer will work fine with a 1 Megabyte Video Card (Graphics Card), an 8 Megabyte card will help quite a bit. For graphics hungry games you may find you need a 64 Megabyte 3D Graphics accelerator to get your favourite game running smoothly.
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DISK CLEANUP
Go to Start\Programs\Accessories\System Tools\Disk Cleanup
to help you free up space on your hard drive. Disk Cleanup searches your drive, and then lists temporary files, Internet cache files, and unnecessary program files you can safely delete.
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TEMP FOLDER
To clean out the TEMP folder restart the computer on MS-Dos mode.
Type deltree c:\windows\temp and press <ENTER>
Answer the on-screen prompt with Y (yes). When the Temp Directory is deleted,
Type md TEMP and press <ENTER>
Type exit and press <ENTER> to restart Windows.
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FAT32 is an advanced file system, allowing smaller clusters and 2 terabyte partition sizes. It effectively allows you to use more and waste less of your hard drive's precious space. If you are setting up a new drive, partition it to FAT32. But, if you are using FAT16, you want to convert it to FAT32. Windows 98 provides a handy utility to convert to FAT32. Back up your data first, because the process is not reversible. If you are using Windows 95 OSR2, you can use a program such as PartitionMagic to make the change.
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DIRECT MEMORY ACCESS (DMA), is embedded into your motherboard and allows faster transfer of data from system memory to hard drives. Most new drives are DMA-compliant.

In the Control Panel go to: System\Device Manager\Disk Drives and highlight the Hard Drive and select Properties\Settings. Put a tick in the DMA Box and click OK.

In order to work, your BIOS must support DMA and you must have the right bus mastering drivers installed. These drivers usually come with a new motherboard or machine.
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Two Hard Drives on your system, pay attention to where you put them. If you have an UltraDMA drive, be sure that this is your primary drive. Do not put an older EIDE drive on the same bus as the UltraDMA, as it will bog down the bus and slow down the performance of the UltraDMA.

Slower drives such as CD-ROMs, DVD-ROMs, and removable drives should be on their own bus too, separate from the UltraDMA hard drive.
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RAMDRIVE works well for the Windows temp folder and your browser's cache folder(s) provided you have enough RAM, and may significantly increase speed while browsing the Internet.

In the config.sys Insert: DEVICEHIGH=C:WINDOWS\RAMDRIVE.SYS 32767 /E
In the autoexec.bat: SET TEMP=D:\ (D being the new Ramdrive letter)

If you encounter any errors with something not loading, or ems or xms, replace the entry in the config.sys with the following:
DEVICEHIGH=c:windows\himem.sys
DEVICEHIGH=c:windows\emm386.exe ON MIN=16384
DEVICEHIGH=c:windows\ramdrive.sys 32767 /E

Ramdrive size in MB Number to enter
1 1024
2 2048
4 4096
8 8192
16 16384
32 32767
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SYSTEM INFORMATION
Go to: Start\Programs\Accessories\System Tools\System Information
Conflicting devices will show up under Hardware Resources\Conflicts/Sharing
Problem Devices will show up under Components\Problem Devices
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DEVICE MANAGER
Go to: Control Panel\System\Device Manager and check for a 'Yellow ! or ?
A device marked this way has an IRQ or Memory address conflict with another device and needs to be re-installed.
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BIOS
(ENABLE The Following)
Memory Parity Error Check
Numeric Processor Test
L1 Cache
L2 Cache
External Cache Memory
Internal Cache Memory
Shadow Memory Cacheable
Quickboot
HDD SMART Capability (if your hard drive supports it)
Video BIOS Shadow (if your Video Card has Bios)
Adapter ROM Shadow (You need to know what card takes what)
(memory addresses in order to use this wisely)
PCI/VGA Palette Snoop (only if with MPEG card or an add-on card that)
(makes use of graphics card's Feature Connector)
IDE HDD Block Mode
Fast A20 Gating
Global Chipset Features
Memory Timing (Set as fast as possible up to your RAM speed)
(Most typical RAM has a speed of 60 ns)
Turbo Frequency (Disable if problems occur)

(DISABLE the following)
Virus Warning
Typematic Rate programming
Above 1MB Memory Test
Memory Tick Sound
On Error Wait for F1
Floppy Drive Seek at Boot
Quick Power on Self Test
(problems will not be detected at start-up)
Report No FDD for Windows 95
(only to free up an extra IRQ)
Boot Delay
(allows Hard Drive to activate before Bios)
(needs it. Re-enable if problems occur.)
IDE channels
(Many BIOS setups have all four IDE channels set to AUTO)
(to auto-detect the Hard Drives. If a channel is not)
(being used, disabling it will free up an IRQ)

Similarly, if you are using SCSI drives and have no IDE, then you can disable all IDE controllers. If you want to, you can disable the IDE port on your sound card. Some sound cards come with IDE controllers for a CD-ROM drive to connect to. This controller can be set up on IRQ 11. Disabling this can free up that IRQ. This is usually done by changing a jumper on the sound card.

Most PCI buses assign a different priority level to each PCI slot, from lowest to the highest. Check documentation for slot priority and Bios for slot IRQ assignment. Put Video Card and NIC in slot 0 and 1.

Changed the wait state on the cache from 2 to 0.

Exit and Save the new settings.
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Naww... he's a stubborn old aussi brute who just wants to get under my skin!

thinks he's crock dundee or some other!.. LOL (he probably is so don't get too close)

You old bugger.. but don't email me about pc problems.. geezs..

[email protected]

Just an update.

The new case and the chorus of fans seems to be doing the trick.

But I still have some minor problems. Internet Explorer 6 seems to sometimes not close properly causing shutdown problems (will reboot but not shutdown) . It seems to close normally and it's not there if I do a CTRL ALT DEL but it (IEXPLORE) is listed as a running process when I run MSINFO 32. When it does this the system resources and CPU activity is high even if I am not doing anything on the machine and all windows are closed.

I have been watching the CPU activity meter to try and find the cause. I thought I had solved it when I found that it seemed to happen after I closed the annoying task scheduler that McAfee Security Centre insists on installing but with the last McAfee update it happens regardless. It also happens when My Homer page (Excite) doesn't load properly and I have to do a CTRL ALT DEL to kill the then hung Internet Explorer.

I have all the MS shutdown patches and MS Windows updates and all the speed up tricks that readj suggested have always been installed. Killing all my start up programs also makes no differenece.

I have ICQ installed but rarely use it and have never updated it; should I look at uninstalling or updating it perhaps? Perhaps it's time to change home pages as well.

All in all 100% better than it was but still some minor niggles.

BTW changes cases on a HP is interesting you lose the common earths when you unscrew the Mobo so you also lose the BIOS setting which then return to the original including the HP startup logos. Defiant little HP insists on declaring its origins although its no longer in a HP case.:D

by the time I've sent this you've already figured to reboot a few times.

I hear you people get eaten by sharks alot?

mach :D

So Mach are you saying rebooting a number of times will fix it?

On sharks I work for the Department of Fisheries here and I was on shark alert standby over Christmas; shark hysteria had gripped the media and some of our beachgoers although the chances of being eaten by a great white are much less that being killed by one of our poisonous snakes or unusual things like catching you necktie in your cars fan/fanbelt and being strangled or minced to death. I guess the thought of being eaten alive is a bit scary though.

Actually, I haven't even been eaten once yet this year :D

Maybe some hot babe will feel sorry for me :eek:

Good call - although I'm guessing you might get admonished for it.

Yes; you'll most likely get some volunteers to bath you in oil; whale oil and throw you in some shark infested waters. Or perhaps feed you to the salties unlike sharks those crocs really like to eat people.

hmmm this is already 03/06?? go figure .. Well understanding that a reboot is usually necessary after downloading an msn upgrade. if on regular modem one used to be instructed to "open from" msn instead of downloading. Since I have a problem with msn myself/dsl I think I'll go back to "open from" myself. otherwise not sure.

Migh try cleaning out the msn messenger folder first but msn on hot times is known for poor packets on peak periods.

mach

the show goes on!..