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I'm thinking of buying a new Dell PC. They have some great deals right now on the small business pc's.
Anyway, the P4 2.0 cost $290.00 more than the 1.8. Would there be much of a noticeable speed difference between the two?
Also, does anyone know what speeds the P4 will being going up to? I want to get a pc that I can upgrade the cpu a year or two from now.
I don't think there would be a significant performance difference between the 1.8 and the 2.0, certainly not a $300 difference.
The P4 should be going up to about 3.5ghz. If your'e thinking upgrade then make sure the P4 you get is using socket 478 (which will scale high) and not socket 423 (which will max out at 2.0ghz). And make sure its using (admittedly expensive) RDRAM and not P4 performance crippling SDRAM.
Now that I've answered your questions, I'll offer my opinion. If you are thinking of upgrading down the road do not buy a Dell (or compaq, IBM, gateway, or any other OEM).
Dell and others tend to use proprietary Motherboards and other components that can't always be upgraded easily. Also, instead of giving you an Operating System (which you will pay for) they will give you a 'recovery disk' which limits what you can do.
My advice instead would be to buy components and build the computer yourself. Or, if you find that too daunting, find a reputable local dealer and have a computer custom built with the components you want.
If your set on a P4 setup make sure it has:
a socket 478 mobo and RDRAM.
However, I would recommend an AMD setup instead. AMD is the current performance champ and, believe it or not, they are less expensive than the slower P4. I would get:
An Shuttle AK-31 kt266a (or ASUS A7V266-E)Mobo, AthlonXP 1800+ (1.53ghz) CPU, 512 megs of PC-2100 ddr ram, etc.
hope this helps.
Thanks for your reply BadBrain1.
The reason I was looking at Dell is I can get a Dell 8200 series with a P4 1.8 (socket 478), 256MB RDRAM, 40GB Ultra100 hard drive, Geforce2 MX video card, Soundblaster Live Digital card, NIC card,Office XP small buisness and Windows XP for $859.00 free shipping. Also, Every Dell we have here at work and my home pc have been great.
Do you think I could build an equal system or better for the same price? If so where would be the best place to buy all the components.
Thanks, Tony
I think you could bring in the hardware for that or a little lower, but throw in Office XP, Win XP and sales tax/shipping and I don’t think you can equal that price. Is it a special deal through your employer?
I ran as close as I could to the components and got about $800 for Monarch to build just the hardware. You are over $900 with just Windows MX and no Office. Try putting one together yourself: http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv
P4 1.8 (socket 478) $206
256MB RDRAM $80
40GB Ultra100 hard drive $80
Geforce2 MX video card $55
Soundblaster Live Digital card $30
NIC card $10
Office XP small buisness $150
Windows XP (Pro) $107
You're already over $700 without a motherboard, case, monitor, or peripherals (mouse / keyboard). Those prices are the latest lowest from pricewatch.com
Nothing against Dell's directly, but any computer you buy from a company like them - you're basically stuck with that with little or no option for future upgrades / changes. I made the mistake myself buying a Compaq - though I have managed to upgrade the RAM, go from Win98 to ME, add a NIC, and even add a new power supply (sort of). This time around though I'm building it from scratch. It will cost a bit more than if I bought a put-together system from one of the big corporations, but I know exactly what's going into it - quality parts that I want, not whatever they choose to use or let you pick from - and I'll have plenty of room for changes and upgrades.
Take a look at greengoose1's Delta thread, in case you're just nervous about building from scratch https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
That price is through Dell's online pricing for small business's. I'm not a small business but I can get it shipped to my work. The one thing I left off is $38.00 in taxes that you have to pay going through the small business's. Also, no monitor included but I don't need one. The main thing I want is to be able to upgrade the cpu in a year or two past a 2.0Ghz
I'll check out that web site.
Thanks, Tony
The 1.8 and the 2.0 use different motherboards. Different sockets for the cpu is the problem as the 2.0 has more pins.
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SMILE
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Yeah, if upgrading in a year or two is your main objective then you're better off with a custom PC then a Dell (though the Dell does sound like a good deal).
Personally, I'm a fan of doing my research, and pricing components, online and then buying locally from a good mom and pop outfit (as long as the mom and pop has a good reputation and has been around for a while). Again, you can take the plunge and build the system yourself (with help here) or have them put it together for you as per your specifications.
Also, remember that the Dell WindowsXP is not a real Windows OS but just a recovery disk for the pre-intalled setup they give you. It can be a pain to get rid of all the fluffy stuff they install on your system.
And ultimately, custom built systems are more fun. You know to-the-letter exactly what's in your machine starting with the most important component -- the motherboard. And then you start tweaking this and that -- like setting agressive RAM timings or overclocking -- and you can squeeze the maximum performance out of your system for free.
I'll just mention one final thing: It may sound strange, but a 1.53ghz AMD AthlonXP eats (is faster/outperforms) a 2.0ghz P4 for about half the price. And Athlon's Socket A also has a good upgrade path -- it should reach about 2.5-2.7ghz (which will be the speed equivalent of a 3ghz+ P4). In addition to that, AMD compatible DDR ram performs equally to P4 compatible RDRAM for about one quarter the price. So you could put together a killer AMD box -- with top notch components and a good upgrade path -- for less then the Dell box.
take care,
Dan.
If for some reason you want to buy a pre-made system as opposed to build, then fine. Some people just don't feel comfortable or don't want to bother building their own. Dell is a good brand, and the amount you're paying is reasonable. When you start adding everything in/up you likely will not do better (or much) building yourself. And then there's always the fact that "if you build it, you support it". That too can be a problem/issue for some.
A couple notes:
The P4 1.8 and 2.0 are available in both the socket 473 and the socket 478 types. As said, for upgradeability the socket 478 is preferred (so it's good the one you're buying has that). Currently, there is no performance difference between the socket 473 and 478 CPUs. When the new Northwood core (socket 478) P4s are out there will be performance enhancements.
As BadBrain1 said, lower mhz/ghz AMD processors can achieve the same or better performance as higher P4's models. So today with the typical slate of applications available and that people run a lower, cheper Athlon is generally a better value. But if you want to go the P4 route (I might at least look at AMD alternatives).. You will likely feel/see liitle difference going with either the 1.8ghz or 2.0ghz P4, so ya might as well save the 200 bucks.
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Thanks for everyone's help. I think I'll pass on the Dell and built AMD system myself.
What do you guys think of barebone systems?
I was looking at the following from Mcglen.com
ABIT KG7 AMD SOCKET A DDR ATX MOTHERBOARD WITH 266FSB
AMD ATHLON XP PROCESSOR 1700+ WITH QUANTISPEED ARCHITECTURE (1467MHz) OEM
512MB DDR 266MHz 64x64 PC2100 Non-Parity Unbuf DIMM 2.5V DDRAM
ThermalTake A1139 VOLCANO 6 CU BALL BEARING COPPER AMD SKT 462 & INTEL SKT 370 HEAT SINK & FAN
TEAC 1.44MB Floppy Drive OEM PACKAGE
IN-WIN S506 300Watt Power Supply Mid tower ATX case 3 X 5.25 Bays 2 x 3.5 2 x 3.5+ x2 case fan!!
TOSHIBA 16X DVD ROM / 48X CD-ROM Random access: 115ms DVD-ROM SD-M1502-TA
2 year component warranty
$551.00 for all the above free shipping.
All I would need is a video and sound card. ( I already have a monitor, hard drive, and Win2K I can use)
Or should I buy everything serperate? Others have a cpu/motherboard combo's should I consider those?
Tony
In a perfect world you could find one site that has every part you want, at the lowest prices, with the cheapest shipping rates. The Wal-mart of the computer world https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ But things don't work that way - so you either buy everything from one place where one part is a steal and the next a rip-off, or where everything is in the middle. I've heard good things about newegg.com (great service, decent prices) but I've used Pricewatch and eBay to find better deals on most components. Sadly, the only parts I've ordered from newegg have been a couple of hard drive coolers https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
The only comments I would make on your choices:
Make sure the designation on the Thermaltake is 6 CU and not 6 CU+. The plus version has better cooling but it is noisy and not necessary unless you plan to overclock. The place I got my Thermaltake from was nice enough to put a little dab of silver paste on it for me – hope you are as lucky. Don’t understand the Intel heat sink and fan in addition. The 6CU comes with a good heatsink. You can put only one heatsink and fan on a CPU.
Check on which Lite-On DVD they are offering. If it is the LTD 122, it will extract digital audio fast enough to record on the fly at 16X if you get a burner. The LTD 163 has the fastest DAE you can get and will keep up at 24X. The Kenwoods are faster but unreliable in reading CDR. Lite-On is the DVD drive of choice if you think you might eventually want to install a burner. http://www.cdspeed2000.com/go.php3?link=daeresults.php3
Tony, kudos on a very nice looking system. And congrats on deciding to build it yourself (and going AMD).
I have a couple of suggestions though:
The motherboard you've chosen is very nice, ABIT boards are highly tweakable and the AMD 760 chipset is very solid. You'll be a happy camper with that board
But Motherboards using the VIA kt266a chipset smoke all the competition (including AMD chipset boards) in ALL the benchmarks. That AthlonXP with a kt266a Mobo....oh mama!!!
Here's a nice comparison of the various Athlon chipset solutions:
http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=1528
And the AMD chipset boards are expensive because supply is low and demand is high. At McGlen.com (as part of the AMD Athlon XP Processor DDR Bundle) you can get the EPoX 8KHA+ (which uses kt266a chipset) for about $50 cheaper and it will be about 20% faster. Anandtech rates the board very highly here:
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1547&p=1
I think the bundle looks nice but I've never heard of mcglen.com. If they're trustworthy it looks like a good deal and good components. Research any online retailer's reputation before giving them your money.
Video card and sound card recommendations I can make after you tell us if you're a gamer.
As Slipe suggested, think about a CD-RW. Its really a great way to back up documents and important data -- and helps you sleep at night knowing if you get a virus or your hard drive dies you've got all your important stuff backed up on a couple of Cds.
The case also sounds nice. Case fans are very important for good airflow and keeping a cool box. But you might consider one with a higher rated power supply -- since you've talked about upgrading a year or two down the road. You might be better off with a 400+ watt power supply. IMO, Enermax Power supplies are the best. 300watts should be enough for now though (and may be good enough for your upgrade) but before you buy the PS, confirm that its got a 160 watt or greater rating on the 3v+5v output specifications.
good work.
Later,
Dan.
[This message has been edited by BadBrain1 (edited 10-30-2001).]
Hey Badbrain1,
Where can I buy one of those boards with the KT266A chipset? According to what I see AnandTech likes the EPoX board the best. Pricegrabber does not list it nor does Cnet.
What do you think of the ASUS A7M266 mobo ?
A local shop has one for sale.
Hi Bandit.
Alot of people like newegg.com. Here's the kt266a EPOX EP-8KHA+ board:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...nufactory=1318
$107 is a very good price for the board.
What do I think of the ASUS A7M266? I would have recommended it a few months ago but today its a bit of a dinosaur. Again, it uses the AMD 761 chipset so its going to be good and solid -- and ASUS make nice (though a bit overpriced) motherboards. But it's from the transition from sdram to ddr ram -- so it has 2 ddr dimm slots and 3 sdram dimm slots. But you can't use both. You gotta pick one. Since you'd be using DDR ram, effectively what that means is you have only two ram slots. That would suck for upgrading down the road.
And ten-to-one the A7M266 is about $40 more expensive than the EPOX, mainly because Mobos using the AMD chipset are expensive.
I was just looking at the specs on the EPox mobo and I noticed that it uses SDRAM instead of DDR. Also the EIDE controller is Ultra 66 not 100. Would'nt this hurt performance?
Maybe I should look at the Shuttle board instead.
Is ther only 3 mobo out with the KT266A chipset?
I think you were looking at the wrong Mobo (all the Epox boards names sound the same)
This is copied and pasted from newegg:
EPOX EP-8KHA+ VIA Apollo KT266A (VT8366A) 200/266 MHz Motherboard - For AMD & & AMD XP, Athlon and Duron Socket A.Accepts DDRAM, 3 DDR Slot,1X / 2X / 4X AGP FSB,1 AGP Slot,6 PCI Slot. Support ATA 33/66/100, 2 USB, Ver 1.3, with Sound, - Retail Box. Fedex Saver Shipping $8.00
Soooo you're saying that when I finally put my XP 1700 or 1800 on my MSI K7T266Pro-R mobo that it will be, well, quick? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/Quote:
But Motherboards using the VIA kt266a chipset smoke all the competition (including AMD chipset boards) in ALL the benchmarks. That AthlonXP with a kt266a Mobo....oh mama!!!
I guess I already pasted the correct EPOX board that shows it to be ATA 100 and using DDR ram. The Shuttle board is supposed to be very good too though (but I think the EPOX is a bit better)Quote:
Originally posted by banditcosmo:
I was just looking at the specs on the EPox mobo and I noticed that it uses SDRAM instead of DDR. Also the EIDE controller is Ultra 66 not 100. Would'nt this hurt performance?
Maybe I should look at the Shuttle board instead.
Is ther only 3 mobo out with the KT266A chipset?
To answer your other question, yes, right now there's only three mobos using kt266a available. But within weeks there will be many more. For example, ASUS should be releasing their board in North America (its already available in Europe) in a week or so. Here's the ASUS board:
http://www.asus.com/products/Motherb...6-e/index.html
What's everyones opinion of the following system:
EPOX EP-8KHA+ VIA Apollo KT266A (VT8366A) 200/266 MHz Motherboard - Socket A.Accepts DDRAM, 3 DDR Slot,1X / 2X / 4X AGP FSB,1 AGP Slot,6 PCI Slot. Support ATA 33/66/100, 2 USB, Ver 1.3, with Sound, - Retail Box.
Amd 1700+/266 FSB Athlon XP Athlon XP 1700+/ 1.47GHz, AX1700BOX, Retail Box, 3 Years Warranty.
Enermax / Antec, BLACK, 10-Bay, Enermax 330W P-4 PS, Server Tower Case ATX. 4 X 5.25" Bays, 2 X 3.5" Bays, 4 X 3.5" Hidden. Enermax EG351P VE(2 BB Fans) (AMD Recommended power supply.) 3 Fans installed. Dimensions: W205*D473*H522 (mm).(* Antec SX1030B SX1040B Case + Upgraded Enermax Power Supply *)
LEADTEK WINFAST GEFORCE2 MX SH 64MB VIDEO CARD - RETAIL 6ns SDRAM 4X AGP. Nvidia GeForce2 MX-400GPU, 3-Year MFR's Warranty.
PLEXTOR TX-W2410TA/SW 24x10x40 CD-RW - RETAIL Internal IDE Drive
LITE-ON LTD-163 SPEED - RETAIL16X DVD ROM 48X CD-ROM Access all format DVD-ROM/R/RW
Teac 1.44MB 3.5 Inch Floppy Drive
CREATIVE LABS SOUND BLASTER LIVE! 5.1 - OEM
2 x 256mb Crucial DDR PC2100 • CL=2.5 • Unbuffered • ECC • 2.5V • 32Meg x 72
Everything for $850.00 including frt.
WOW!!
That's an awesome rig!!!
That thing is gonna smoke the 1.8ghz P4 Dell (actually its gonna smoke the 2.0ghz P4 in 90% of tasks) -- and its $9 cheaper...and you got the Cadillac of CD-RWs with that 24x/10x/40x Plextor. I love my 12x/10x/32x Plextor but I gotta say I'm a bit jelous. Oh, and you also got twice as much RAM.
Couple really minor points though: you've chosen a server tower case. Nothing wrong with that -- but it will be huge. Its got 10 drive bays! Its black -- which is very cool -- but you might be happier with a standard ATX mid-tower case. Unless you want to serve a dinner for four in your case, I'd probably recommend the mid-tower. You'll probably save a few bucks too. Excellent power supply though -- make sure you keep that.
Finally, you've got $9 left over. Unless you already have one, you should spend that $9 on a NIC (if you have broadband internet) or a PCI modem (if you have dialup).
Awesome rig. Did I mention I'm jealous?
take care,
Dan.
That system looks great! I recently built my system with the Epox 8KHA (not +), and Epox makes great boards!
Oh yeah, if I were you, I would stick with the full tower case. I bought a midtower, and find I'm cramped when working on the "innards". I'm going to be upgrading to a full tower soon (Lian-Li PC70), and I can't wait for the extra space! The PSU looks good (I went with the 430 Watt Enermax).
That looks like a Newegg.com order...I got most of my components from them, and the service and prices are great!
Good luck with the new system.
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Specs:
Skyhawk Aluminum case
Athlon [email protected]
Epox 8KHA mobo
768Mb Crucial PC2100 DDR
Enermax 430 Watt PSU
Win XP Pro
Acer 56x, Acer 20x10x40
2 30Gb 7200rpm WD HDD's
[This message has been edited by adam9977 (edited 11-01-2001).]
Your right adam9977 I'm ordering everything from newegg.com. I hear they have great service and fast delivery. I guess I could try to price everything individually and buy the lowest priced but I'd rather pay a little more and get everything from one good reseller.
I think I will get the Antec case. It has gotten some great reviews, $99.00, it's black, 3 fans installed, 330w power supply included and it's really not that much bigger than my Dell (XPS-T)that I have now. I just hope with 3 fans it won't be to noisy.
Thanks Dan, I can't wait for the Plextor cd-rw drive. I'm using an HP writer right now with a 8x write speed and it takes over 20 minutes (test and burn)to burn a mp3 (on the fly) CDR.
My cable company has provided me with a nic card so I don't need one.
One question, I'm going to use my existing hard drive for this pc and it is partitioned into three sections.
Do I need to repartition and reformat the whole hard drive or can I reformat the first section and not reformat the other two partitions? I have close to 12GB of mp3's that I don't want to lose and it would be to much to back them all up.
My other option would be to get another hd and use my existing as a slave then I shouldn't have to reformat I think?
thanks, Tony
I think any of those options would work.
If it were me though, I'd bite the bullet, buy a couple boxes of CDs, back up the MP3s, and wipe the drive clean for the new box. I think the cleanest Windows install is done on a fresh formatted drive.
Whether you should buy a new Primary hd though depends on the specs of your existing hd.
If its 20+ GB, ATA66+, and 7200 RPM I would probably use it.
If its a small drive running at 5400 RPM I'd buy a new one because that hd would become a bottleneck in such a fast system.
My hd is a 40GB 7200 ATA100.
Wouldn't reformatting the 1st partition and reinstalling windows be a fresh install? I only use the other 2 partitions for file storage. No programs loaded on them just mostly mp3's. I figure I could back up the data I need from the 1st partition to the other partitions too. (plus I will back those files up to cd-w but not the mp3's)
Hey Tony.
You can't really do much better than a 40gb, ATA100, 7200 rpm hd so I would just use that one.
And if your second two partitions are storage only, no programs, you can just re-format and install windows on the first partition and you should be fine.
take care,
Dan.
Thanks for everyone's help, I placed my order today with newegg.com and should have everything early next week. I ordered what I listed previously except I changed the video card to a VISIONTEK Xtasy 5632 GEFORCE2 GTS-V 4X/2X 32MB AGP - (a little less money but great reviews)
and I changed the sound card to a VOYETRA TURTLE BEACH SANTA CRUZ oem card
I might need some help next week when I try to put everything together. Hopefully I'll have no problems.
Couple of more questions, I bought the AMD 1700+ retail which comes with a heatsink and fan.
Should I get a different heatsink and fan or is is the one that comes with the AMD ok? I probably won't be overclocking, at least not for a while.
And what's a cpu shim? And do I need one?
Thanks, Tony
Hey Tony.
You'll want to keep the heatsink and fan that comes with the retail processor. Since it comes with the chip, it will be rated as adequate for cooling the CPU. And I believe it will come in the box pre-installed so it will just be a matter of plunking it in the socket and plugging in the fan. Since your not overclocking (yet) the retail heatsink will be fine.
If you were to replace it with a different heatsink/fan you would automatically void your warranty -- which would make buying a retail chip pointless (since the difference between retail and OEM is the heatsink/fan and warranty -- and a cool AMD sticker). By the way, overclocking the chip also voids the warranty. So at a certain point, if you do decide to overclock you will be voiding the warranty anyway -- so at that point you might want to buy a new hsf if you need more cooling.
Similarly, you don't need a CPU shim. Its an overclockers thing. Like the other stuff, installing a shim would void your warranty (and I don't think you need one anyway....I overclock and don't use a shim). Here's a good description of what a shim is:
http://www.ocia.net/reviews/purpleshim/purpleshim.shtml
I'd recommend that when you do start putting your new box together, if you have any probs, you start a new thread. We're not really talking about the difference between a 1.8 and 2ghz Dell P4 anymore. If you ask me, we're talking about something alot cooler.
cheers,
Dan.
Hi all,
one quick tip.
Don't ever put power onto the mobo without the CPU heatsink and fan being properly mounted onto that AMD...
nice rigs, yada yada...
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I think we forgot to ask you a question...
Besides, it's only free advice...
Kind regards, Jaak