Can two power supplies be fitted in ONE case? and HOW?

Hi.

Can two power supplies be fitted in ONE huge ATX case? and HOW?

would be some work, but it got the room
BUT, how do I make it power up?

or should I use a old AT PSU rather than an atx?

I ain't afraid of splicing and solderin

Kind regards.
Jaak

Jaak, I asked a similar question recently, had planned to use AT to power the MOBO & ATXfor all else. was told (don't rmrmber by whom) that this might cause 'power management' problems. I'll follow this thread to see if you get a better answer, like HOW, as I, too, have the room, and am not afraid of a soldering iron.

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Live like you'll die tomorrow - learn like you'll live forever.
_Junker

[This message has been edited by Junker (edited 08-16-2001).]

Hi Jaak, Yes, you can do it but why? Are you building a super computer by chance? Both supplies would be tied to the same source, so where do you come out ahead?

I think I remember the thread Junker is referring to. And if it is Bistro and Train were in on it.

Different subject. Will email you later. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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goose,

Never heard of experimenting? Trying/doing something because it can be done?
I've thought about it myself, since I have a couple of spare PSs, but I alway stranded at the question of how to control the "secondary" as this is not directly linked to the mobo's ATX plug. It WOULD have to require some soldering (which I do, but not in a way that will earn me any medals - but it works..).
I then give up and enjoy myself ordering a huge Enermax instead... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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Karl, Denmark
---------
"..and may The Force be with you - too..."

I go along with kallikru.
But maybe this will give you food for thought.

Now do you have a AC/DC INDUCTIVE AMP PROBE or simular device, to verify that you need the extra amperage. Case fans can be AC with a , 10Amp contact 1500 ohm 12VDC souce requirement selenoid [Radio Shack and the likes have them. But forget what they call them]. Power it from the mobo/ps and get the AC from the ps switch, or seperate circuit altogether.

Let's see , I am thinking you will need to tie the two together in the power on and shutdown circuits in the ps's so that they are parallel. Thus powering up and shuting down both at the same time.

Hope this floats. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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[This message has been edited by Train (edited 08-16-2001).]

To tie the two together, all you need do is change the pc on-off switch from spst to dpst. That would be Radio Shack's terminology.

yrralrellim
That would seem to do it the easy way https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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Hi Kallikru, Not against experimenting. I was just wondering why.

What if you had a back up battery tied to the second power supply where when commercial power was lost you would automatically switch over? I like the idea of backups in hardware as well as software/files. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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Jaak,

See the link I gave in my post in this thread a while back.

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DrMDJ
They done redone the website, so your link is broken. DARN

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Geez, everyone is changing stuff. Thanks for letting me know Train.

OK, thank goodness for the Google cache. Go to Google and type +pc-mod +atx in the search box. When the results come back choose the first hit, and select the cached version of the link. That should get the article I'm trying to direct Jaak to.

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[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 08-16-2001).]

Hi jtdoom,

If you put in two supplies you won't have the load of the motherboard or the signals it provides on the "Power Good" line. Both are critical to the proper operation of the power supply.

The peripherals only us the +5 V and +12 V outputs -12 V and -5 V are only sent to the motherboard. Connecting those outputs together will cause the regulation circuts to fight each other, and probably blow both supplies and the motherboard. Leaving one off will burn up the supply that has no load.

On the test bench we us a hefty dropping resistor to provide the necessary load when operating a supply without it's peripherals, but that generates a lot of heat.

If you just want to be able to add more peripherals there are supplies made to do that. They usually cone in boxes that have no motherboard. For example, I have a Compaq SCSI drive box that is built to hold up to 7 SCSI drives. That power supply would work because it only provides the +12 V and +5 V used by the peripherals. There are also some single and double drive boxes that work the same way.

The question is, with power supplies so cheap, why bother?

Good Luck, https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

DA

DrMDJ
Guess we will have to wait. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Google works fine. But pc-mod https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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When the hit comes up, click the "cached" word down near the bottom of the few lines listed (between pc-mod.com/howto/atx/ - 5k and - similar pages)

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[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 08-16-2001).]

Better yet, try this (backdoor) link I just created: 2 supplies.

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So You have maxed out what your atx power supply can handle, what do you do? you go out and buy a bigger supply and what do you do with he old one? toss it in the parts bin. Why not put that old psu to some work and have it help out your new psu with the load.

What you need: 2 atx psu's, some wire, and space in the case (may have to remove the drive bays in the back if you have them)


Setting up your system to run dual psu's is very simple. First thing to do is make sure that both psu's work. Now locate the plugs that hook up to the motherboard on both psu's.


Link wire 15 (black) on both psu's together, line 15 is ground and to run dual psu's you need a common ground.


Link wire 14 (green) on both psu's together, line 14 is the "ps-on" line which turns the psu's on. Now your done with the master psu, the master psu is the supply that plugs into the motherboard.


We have to trick the slave supply that the power is ok since there is no motherboard on it to send that signal. To do that we link line 7 (gray) to line 8 (black).


Always make sure you have a load on both supplies, even just a little floppy drive will do.


Atx psu pin out, note that other supply's may use different wire colors.

Dual ATX psu wiring diagram

Note: this method only allows you to run two psu's in one case as separate units, if you need more current I suggest you use matching power supply's and follow these directions but also link 12v line to 12v line on each psu together, same with the 5 volt lines, this way you will get more current if you need it. basically connect everything pin to pin from each atx socket

So, I had some it right. Just copy/pasted here.
Thanks , now know where I goofed.

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Hi
saw some smart guessing as to why...
yep, its a ton of peripherals...

I was playing with the idea of doing this...

= USB scanner (luckily it has a power supply, so it isn't maxing out the port)
= USB radio

+ USB signal future USB printer/digital device.
+ USB webcam (for the hell of it, to fill four ports...)

= parallel laser

= SCSI card,
= SCSI hard drive,
= SCSI burner,
+ SCSI CDROM (currently not connected)

+ hotrod RAIDcard
+ four 7200rpm IDE drives on hotrod (future raided total of four)

= one ATAPI DVD
= two IDE data disks on mobo controller
+ one zipdrive (currently not connected)
= one floppydrive
= (one free connector for data transferrals, iow, I use this to connect hard disks to)

= three case fans
= athlon 1133 @ 266FSB
= the mobo
= CPU cooler
= soundcard
= some rather souped up AGP card with cooler
= NIC
+ NIC-2
= fax/voice-modem
= three sticks of SDRAM (640 total)

= a crane to lift it
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

I think this would need better than the 300W I have avail right now.
so I actually disconnected a few things in there
the ones marked with + are those I would like to add or currently have not connected

-------------------
hmmm, it could be a better Idea to just not load all that stuff in this one big tower but spread it over two machines and run them networked
(in which case there would be two more ATA100 drives, an atapi-CDROM and atapi burner)
--------------------

okay, all of above was the original Idea...
===================

BUT, I have another ATX case with feeble PSU I would still like to use, even if only to make the mobo and CPU power up, and have two AT-style PSU I rather not throw away...
and that's the real reason I asked.

I'll have to use Bistro's sums to see how far I can go on the options I have.

I'll reread the hints about the wiring.
something ain't clear in my mind.
the wire 7 to 8 thing for example.

SADLY, I do not have any kind of inductive AMP meter https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
but, I can borrow one.

now, you do not run the measurement clipping it over the entire bunch of wires, but measure one wire at the time, is that correct?

I just read the stuff, and followed links...
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ the pics were not cached in there. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

I do need a picture of sorts.
My english isn't good enough to do this without pics.

guys/lurkers.
don't attempt this if you needn't do this
I will think thrice before I get the solder-gun out.
(I am no electrician, see.)

but... with good explanations, and good advice, one can at least decide if it would be worth a shot.


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it's only FREE advice!

Kind regards, Jaak

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forgot to mention that the hard disks have dedicated drivecooler fans fitted to them, but that adds only about one (maybe two) watt per drive.

this tower has room for sixteen devices...
four at the back in top
nine in frontside regular hanging bays,
one bay fitted at bottom can hold four, but since I need room for cooling, it maxes at three.

total is theoretical max of sixteen
which means ONe messy bunch of ribbons https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
The more I think about this, the crazier it seems...

but I have had six IDE hard disks hanging in there, plus the SCSI HDD, CDrom & CDRW
and zipdrive...
I did not think it was healthy for the powersupply...

Jaak,

Colors aside below is the typlical ATX connector pinouts and numbering.

http://www.duxcw.com/faq/ps/psconnshort.gif

Also, found another link discussing what needs to be done.

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[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 08-17-2001).]

It is a supercomputer. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Jaak, the old Delta threads have several lists of periphial power requirements. Will dig them out if you don't already have them. Bistro The Queen of Hearts and Train also have them on file as I recall. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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hi

do I read this correct?
Could I use one of them 200Watt AT without needing the solderjob on the ATX?
(since I usually shut everything off by the masterswitch on surgeprotector)

OR, is there danger in this?
(after all, the AT might power up drives before the ATX case-button gets hit, and therefore the mobo would not immediately power up, yet connected devices would...)

would that be detrimental to mobo and controller (mobo) ???????

I currently don't have BIOS set to power on after power failure... I could set it to power up when surgeprotect is switched on, but that may not be wise either.
------------

so far, it seems the ATX + ATX way might be better?
using the feeble ATX as an extra PSU I would get 18Amp extra on +5V, and 4.2A on 12V

------------
Ermm, euh,
how can this be?
this feeble thing says
output 145W

+3.3 12A ( gotta be for stuff on mobo)
+5VSB 0.8A (stand by power, on mobo)
+5V 18A
-12V 0.5A (what's that do????)
+12V 4.2A

that calculates to roughly
40W ON +3.3 (far as I can tell, there would be nothing drawing on it... is that healthy? maybe that's what DaComputers is warning us about)

90W ON +5
50W ON +12V
whatever way one adds these up, I get confused.
it just don't add up well.
What's the beef on these numbers?
anyone have an explanation even I can understand?

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it's only FREE advice!

Kind regards, Jaak


[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 08-17-2001).]

Hi All,

I'm back to repeat what I said earlier. Jtdoom hit right at the heart of the problem. The method shown in the link provided with DrMDJ's last message leaves the +3.3 V, -12V and +5 VSB on the second supply running with no load and these supplies are not built to run with no load.

Even worse, as peripherals are added the load on the +5 and +12 is increased the load across the transformer becomes more and more unbalanced. Kinda like everyone standing on one side of the boat, it doesn't take much to tip it over.

Depending on the design of the supply and the components used, it may or may not take the abuse. If it doesn't you could lose a lot more than just a Power Supply or a Motherboard. These supplies NEVER shut off, so think - 4 AM, Smoke, Flame, Fire Dept. ;(

DA

why the hell do you guys think of these bizarre experiments? it sounds dangerous unsafe and no reason for it.
stay with what you got.

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o4 breathalyzer is a safer lower drunk driving test in some states

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/n/anddidtf.htm

i guess im zorro

dacomputers
Always make sure you have a load on both supplies, even just a little floppy drive will do. From the copy/paste post.

jtdoom
now, you do not run the measurement clipping it over the entire bunch of wires, but measure one wire at the time, is that correct?
Yes, one at a time. Hope for your sake it is digital. I have had some fun reading low amps on a Analog. Probably that ear piercing scream you heard a couple years ago.

I will think thrice before I get the solder-gun out. I see no need for one myself.

But, remember both powersupplies must have some load on them. Even if it means putting a B:\ in to meet that requirement.
But with all the harddisk you have https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ I see no problems.

DrMDJ
Puttting the two links together would make for a good tutorial, I believe.



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Awwwwwwwwww forget all that and pick yourself up one of these, jt..... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

(Throw in a few Y-extenders and you'll be cookin')

[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 08-17-2001).]

bistro
That would only give him a couple hundred extra watts is all.
What and with jaak having all that $$, witness he is always buying scsi stuff. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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Hi All,

When one joins two supplies, should there be a diode between each output source and the parallel circuit? I'm concerned the current differences of the greater PSU output backfeeding against the lesser output and cause damage to the rectifier circuits. the diode allows current to flow in one direction and blocks reverse current.

Maybe I can whip an design for a crude diode interface block if it sounds feasable.

Thoughts?

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It's either that or it's into the woodchipper

stev-rey
I believe if one where to follow the directions and use two identical, name brand and size, It would not be a problem as long as both have a load. NO LOAD, yes it would be. Might be a good Idea at that though.

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Bistro, That case compares favorably with the Empire State building does it not. How's it going anyhow?

Hi steppenwolf, The challenge is why and how . Overclocking is the same thing, I suppose.

Good point stev-rey. They have to be isolated. Forgot that.

DA is right about loading the output.The loads have to be big enough to dissapate the heat too.

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Goin' pretty good there, greengoose. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ I just figured that with all that stuff jtdoom's puttin' in thar, he'll need a super tower with a neato-keeno power supply.

Going to the Blue Ridge Mountains for a week. Should be kinda restful--a nice break. Hopefully I won't have any trees fall on my head....

bistro
watch the shine. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ may have lead in it. Radiators you know. Still pretty country though.

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jaak
One other option is to get a slave case. Compaq makes one for SCSI components that has it's own power and holds 1 to 7 devices
I'm sure others have them available too.

dacomputers
Should have posted this here also.


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Didn't really read the info at pointed to by the second link I offered. The first one (the one copied and pasted in here by Train) was the main one I wanted Jaak to see. It will work.

I don't question why Jaak does or doesn't want to do things. Hell, 90% of the time I don't even understand what he's talkin' about.:} I'm sure he has is reasons here. Or maybe, like Bistro, he too had a beam drop on his head. Nonetheless, he asked a quation so... Everything's relative. This may seem like a dangerous and doomed venture. But the same could often be said the moment some people simply turn on their PCs. ;}

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Hi all

just got home from work.
nice imput, to say the least...
I am impressed.

now, in the distant past I new about basic requirements and how-to parallel two high powered WELDING transformers to get double capacity
-primo, they had to be identical, and should be checked for flaws/abberations before one dood it.
after them things were correctly coupled, such a WELDING transformer setup could be used to have an enourmous amperage for carbon-tip blast-cutting.

the better solution was still to get a really high power transformer.

I don't believe this was ever done on high-frequency convertors and DC convertors

seems I do remember one could couple "dynamo" powered DC. (where an AC motor is used to drive the dynamo)
--------- --------

anyway, I think I can see the danger in coupling a 300 ATX and 145W ATX supply. THANKS.

I also think it could be inadvisable to try a AT style PSU to power drives, in combination with ATX supply.
(hasn't been really answered yet)
I am not sure why.
but dont it have to share ground as well?
- - - - - -

haven't done the sums yet, but
BUT...
I just looked on the BIG case PSU.
+5V on the 300Watter says 30A
(that's an unbelievable 150W for peripherals)
and +12V says 11A
(that's an amazing 130 or so)

together with the 100W on +3.3V that number don't add up well either. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

+5Vsb = 2A = mobo when on stand by power
-12V = 0.3A = ???

+3.3V = 30A = 100W
+ 12V = 11A = 132W
+ 5 V = 30A = 150W

it also says, combined load on
+3.3 and +5V is max 150Watt
and that's where the overload problem lies, isn't it?

when I searched specs for the A-open powersupplies I saw mention of peak loads, and sustained loads.
(and how long they're supposed to sustain certain loads)

anyone would normally "suppose" these statements found on PSU mean max sustained.
(REMEMBER, that is not always true, you REALLY need the REAL specs on the type/model of PSU... and please try find out when they don't make sense... I am still doing some figuring/figuring out...)

anyhow,
athlon, CPU, CPU fan, PCI cards, mobo itself.
that ain't got me left all that much on +5V...
I think I have good reason to be concerned.
------------------------
you wanna know how I found out?
I connected a few things until the time I could not properly get out of stand-by

which explains why I don't have everything hooked up all the time. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
------------------------
I figure THIS one will need edits...

[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 08-18-2001).]

hehe, I told you I would need edits in this post



[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 08-20-2001).]

DANGit

only 1A on +5sb...
that was the ONLY flaw...

Quote:

---

Awwwwwwwwww forget all that and pick yourself up one of these, jt..... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

(Throw in a few Y-extenders and you'll be cookin')

---

yep, I begin to think the idea was not all too bright.
That 3.3V issue worries me.

the alternatives have been mentioned.
a second drive only case (or even raid cases, scsi raid case with direct connect)
(I ain't going for it)

a second puter in networked system
(most practical)
(already have TWO displays, and both of them have built in capability to switch between machines. IOW, one hooks up TWO machines to ONE display. Yeah, that's a cool thing to have...)

for what its worth, I learned.

Train said stuff about getting FULLY parallel.

thus, as I read the posts he made, with exact matching PSU, and full parallel, it might still be done?

even when I am no longer going to be gungho to do this, it's still a viable option then?

this IS the bestestester forum

jaak
Seems you may want to look at a 600W ps.
I did what I could here.

= USB scanner (luckily it has a power supply, so it isn't maxing out the port)
= USB radio

+ USB signal future USB printer/digital device.
+ USB webcam (for the hell of it, to fill four ports...)

= parallel laser

25W= SCSI card,
24W= SCSI hard drive,
20W= SCSI burner,
12W+ SCSI CDROM (currently not connected)

35W+ hotrod RAIDcard [If memory serves me right]
60W+ four 7200rpm IDE drives on hotrod (future raided total of four) [Max at 15W each]

25W= one ATAPI DVD 10 - 25W
22W= two IDE data disks on mobo controller [ Assuming 2 5200RPM harddisk]
+ one zipdrive (currently not connected)
5W= one floppydrive
15W= (one free connector for data transferrals, iow, I use this to connect hard disks to) [ 7200RPM figure used]

6W= three case fans
= athlon 1133 @ 266FSB
= the mobo
= CPU cooler
5W= soundcard
35W= some rather souped up AGP card with cooler
5W= NIC
5W+ NIC-2
= fax/voice-modem
50W= three sticks of SDRAM (640 total)

Using bistro's chart I find 350W and that is not everything as you can see above.
USB info:
High power devices are devices that draw more than 100mA from the USB power line, low power devices are ones that draw 100mA or less. High power devices are typically bus-powered cameras, bus powered hubs. Low-power devices are typically mice, keyboards, joysticks, and any devices that come with their own power supply (also known as self powered devices).
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[This message has been edited by Train (edited 08-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Train (edited 08-18-2001).]

TRAIN,
thanks

>>edit>> rereading this, I made the total... STILL overloaded as is... GRRRR<<

currently, all IDE hard drives I use in my system(s) are in the 7200rpm diamondmax 60 series.

someone said $$ about SCSI
they are older SCSI, 50 pins, wide, (no double wide, 20MB/s max)
these SCSI are "legacy" but I am gonny use them until they wear out (was/is very useful stuff.)

I actually have FOUR 30 GB and three 40GB, currently spread over two MAIN machines.)
(have two more machines)
the woyk-hoss test-bed sees an assortiment of older drives come and go (data transfers/data rescue/data burn) and I use a cradle to do this.
The second "data rescue machine" ain't connected to the net, and has a swapper bay as well.

so, you see what I meant by the "free" connector?
It is hooked up to a ata 33 "swapper" bay, and since I OFTEN hook up drives in it, I don't consider it as unused
(w/i why I only get inside to connect the zip whe I really need it).

havent yet invested in ata 100 swapper bays.
(but should, them bays result in less wear)
=============

I really wanted to have more usable drives in this one here, but I don't think I'll risk it...

yeah, GG1, the athlon is not a super, but a rather capacious computer as is.
its mobo is gonna be replaced soon
(the EPOX arrived, and the abit was seen/diagnosed to have a voltage regulator flaw)

the old piii has only 150 gig in it at the moment. (the old IWiLL woykhoss moved into a 250Watt case)

(Not all PS-Units do, but at least those values put on the PSU in A-open cases seem to mean sustained load...)
--------

any good 600W PSU with at least 2A on +5sb one knows of?

------------------
Kind regards, Jaak

[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 08-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 08-20-2001).]

Redundant ATX Power Supply , They make them things commercially.
http://home.luna.nl/~stepwise/M-2001.html


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[This message has been edited by Train (edited 08-18-2001).]

CNN LIVE: BREAKING NEWS.....

The largest power outage in Belgium's history occurred early this morning; causing a complete breakdown of society there. Reports are flooding in of major accidents and looting. It is not known at this time how this huge blackout could have happened, but sources tell CNN that it seemed to have started in the town of Eeklo in East Flanders and spread rapidly out from there.
Belgium's Chief Minister of Emergency Services had this to say: "We're really not sure how this catastrophe could have happened---we really weren't prepared for this. Last time I saw something like this was when some bozo in Brussels welded two PC power supplies together. Took out half the city when he powered up...."

its always sources...
who's the tattletale I ask...

in this particular instance, I welcom protection of sources.


aha, more options.
redundant PSU's...
I could maybe have enough when I get enermax
or something from powercooling...

but, the full tower I have cost about us$ 110
(inclusive 300W PSU)
(slight mod, I have a bottom mounted bay in there)
their midis have 250W and run silent (around $ 70).

a 450Watt and 600 watt PSU may cost a hell of a lot more... Last I looked at was 450W from powercooling.
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/prices/index.htm

WOW, 600W
Thanks, seems my choice has been made.
the difference pays for a good mobo.
(and then some...)

------------------
it's only FREE advice!

Kind regards, Jaak

VDR SEARCH