Virtual Dr. seems more than a little sick: "Member Participation Issues"

I've considered starting this thread for some time and kept holding off for one reason or another (perhaps hoping things would change and the need would disappear). But observations of late have compelled me to not wait any longer. Hopefully I am not seen as overstepping my bounds here. And it should absolutely be understood that I am not trying to stir trouble.

In a nutshell: there seems to be a quite clear cut and severe problem (or series of problems) here at vdr. As a long term member it became apparent quite some time ago (as in a couple years or more) that this forum was beginning a slow bleed. But now (recently) it seems like things have taken a dramatic turn for the worse. And if something doesn’t change I am truly concerned about its future viability (or meaningful viability) may be at stake.

A few observations and opinions of mine:

1) VDR use to be a very active and vibrant board. Today, it is neither. Things like the number of threads posted to (new or ongoing) in a given day, the number of members online perusing the site (lurking) at any given time, the participation (posting activity) of individual members have declined (now) to a VERY low (even trivial) level. There was always a “seasonal” (if you will) nature to these things, but it now has become chronic, and continues to worsen. Members seem to have drifted away or severely cut back their time here and postings, and in noticeable numbers. That’s existing members. But I have also observed several new members come in, seem to make an effort to participate and get involved, only to then disappear (or pretty much so) after a relatively short time. Something (or things) clearly must be compelling members to spend less time here and be less involved, and in the worst cases simply leave. Likewise, some shortcoming would seem to be having the effect of not compelling many new members to stay (more than in days gone by).

2) VDR use to have a quite diverse member (active member) makeup, offering a good mix of skill, knowledge and experience levels. This gave the forum a good ability to deal with a variety of types and levels of topics/questions/issues. This seems much less the case these days, or it effectively has amounted to being much less the case. Now maybe that same mix exists in the registered membership. But regardless, it is not coming through in the activity/posting.

3) The threads here have become far more repetitive, far less diverse in the subjects they address and the levels they deal at or go in to. In addition, threads that discuss or delve in to topics have all but disappeared. While these were never the norm/majority (and wouldn’t expect to be), they at least use to occur in meaningful numbers. And they made VDR more than just an “answer” site, they made it a more robust (I hate that word, LOL) “help” site. And they (IMO) contributed to it being a site for everyone (all levels, all interests). VDR use to be more of a site where you could not only get a particular/specific problem solved, but also where you could learn. That seems to be far less the case today. It seems like the order of the day is to post and answer and move on. Explaining, delving in to things happens rarely anymore. I’m not saying “just answering the question” isn’t something to be expected, not called for (even desired) in most cases. But not always. Besides, while it may be helpful in the short term to just given “a/the “ answer, it can be more helpful longer term to go a step further. And in addition, it can make a thread that was perhaps only helpful to one person become helpful to many more.

4) Maybe I am wrong on this one, but I have gotten a sense of perhaps some “tension in the air” of late here at vdr. I have no personal knowledge or information to warrant my saying this. Like I said it is just a sense I get, and one that may be wrong. If I am right though I can only say that I have seen this happen in the past here and caused harm to the site. Sometimes once such things get started they can spiral of control. That’s never good. So I will only say that if my “senses” are correct then I would hope that things could be worked out or at least put to bed for the good of the site.

I will wrap up this post because I am probably approaching per-post character limit. But I felt in necessary to get some things on the table as I perceive obvious and growing problems going on here at vdr. I certainly don’t have all (maybe any) of the answers (not even all the questions), but… And maybe I am alone in my perceptions and thoughts. Am I the only one that perceives there to be a problem (or problems)? If so then fine, tell me. If not, then hopefully this will start a dialog, one to hopefully right this ship. Where people agree with me I hope they will say so. And likewise, where they disagree with me I hope they speak up as well. Expand or add where ever you wish. And though I have initially not given any suggestions on my part as to how to perhaps improve things, feel free to start putting forth any ideas/suggestions. After all, the idea here (my goal) is not (would not be) to just identify problems, but also to try and find solutions.

If, as I feel, there is a serious problem here at vdr and if it is to be resolved then it is important for people (mods and members) to speak up. And it is also important that any ensuing discussions be able to be open, tolerant, honest, civil and receptive.

Hi Doc, I must say that your observations are pretty much correct & believe me the mods & myself are quite aware of the situation. This is all being discussed at great length's as we speak. Im sure there are numerous reasons for site to have changed like it has, one of them being because we are running an older version of V-Bulletin & we do not have the ranks in the search engines that we should have. Jupitermedia is planning to upgrade us & hopefuly soon. There are some other underlying issues that I cannot discuss here but those things are being worked on.

I think it would be a great Idea to have the members involved with ideas on how they think we can improve things, all suggestions will be looked at & considered. Thank you for caring my friend. BJ

Yes, thanks for that very insightful post Doc. As BJ said, we have expended many word on this in out private forum, and I suspect there will be a lot more to come.

I did an experiment some months back, that showed that we are not visible in any of the major search engines, using a number of search terms that I thought most people would use. I also got my technophobe missus to do the same with the search terms she would use, with identical results That almost certainly accounts for the lack of new members joining, they simply cannot find us. The new version of Vbulletin will help a lot, it is far more search engine friendly. But if anybody else can think of other (legit) ways of helping us get back into the rankings again, please let us hear about them.

I wish people would post some more of the educational type threads, there surely is a place for them as well as the straightforward problem and answer threads. However, out SpywareDr forum, which is a gold mine of links and resources to keep a computer secure and free of malware, etc. has a very disappointing number of views. I suspect that the computer userbase has changed to a certain extent, that the members from a few years ago were still the early adopting enthusiasts. I think there are a lot more people now who are like Mrs SS, who just don't care how tha PC works, it's just another appliance. This may be a fact of life that all forums have to live with, certainly it fits with my observations/experiences at other forums.

"Tension in the air"; no names will ever be mentioned, nor exactly what happened, but suffice it to say that we had a bunch of troublemakers who did us some damage. It's left some bad vibes for sure. But they're gone for good now, and they won't ever be back. So from now on we can concentrate on getting this site the very best tech forum on the 'net and keeping it like that.

All suggestions will be gratefully recieved, and carefully considered :)

DrMDJ--Some naive comments
There are a lot more credible sites now offering information and help. One that seemed to come out of nowhere is iamnotageek.com. Maybe people are drifting to them.
People who ask for help here are a lot more sophisticated than in years past. No more "How do I copy and paste?" questions. Maybe that is good. In fact the questions posted are much more difficult to solve. And perhaps more specific to fairly narrow situations.
I sense no particular cameraderie on VirtualDr. That is not to say that posters are antagonistic here, but there seems no particular feeling of being part of a group.
I still feel VDr is a very valuable place to visit, but it is no longer as exciting as when I first lurked.
I am not sure the format or engine is the problem. In fact I am quite comfortable with it. ( I just wish it would not reset the time of last visit so easily, like when answering a PM. :) )

I've been lurking around here since the days of NoWonder and have also noticed a bit of a change. I remember a recent thread pretty much along the same lines as this one... but appreciate DrMDJ's comments, well said.

My feeling is simply this... there will be fluctuations in the client base, other sites to draw my attention away, I'll get blue in the face looking at HiJackThis logs, the Mods will get on my case... whatever! I'll still come here because it's become a habit, a good one I might add!

Still a good core group around here ... plan on stickin' with it.

[edit] Might add, I know where most folks went. I'd tell but then I'd have to kill you. [/edit]

Thanks to those who have spoken out here thus far. I hope anyone/everyone with a view or an opinion or an idea will speak out. Given what I (and apparently others) see as the state of things here at vdr, this is not a time for people to be timid or silent. Not if there is any hope of the real problems being found and addressed, and for things to be turned around here. A collective effort is required here. This is a time for people who have something/anything (good or bad) on their mind to say it. The only ground rules or bounds should be that we keep things civil, not get personal, be sensitive, be constructive, that we not get in to a blame game, and us vs them, an attack dog mode. Likewise, where criticisms/negatives are voiced we need to be open/receptive to hearing them, tolerant, and not be immediately defensive.

BJ and Sparks,

If it is the case that vdr is not getting properly “represented” in the search engines and changes to the site software will help that then by all means I hope Jupiter makes those changes. Search engines surely are a part of attracting new members, along with things like word of mouth.

However, while the attraction of new members may need some attention I feel our big/biggest/real problem is with what I (and apparently you) have seen going on with the members already here (existing) at vdr. As I said in my initial post, there (to me) has been a frightening decline in things like the posting/participation of members, the number of members “hanging out” at vdr at any one time, the time members seem to spend here. And while members always come and go, it seems like an inordinate number of members (once active members) have just basically drift off/away. This is not something I’ve observed to be a blip, a seasonal thing, part of what might be perceived as the normal ebb and tide of things. It is a trend that I observed starting some time ago, growing somewhat slowly/steadily. Of late though this has seemed to go from a linear rate of decline/change to more of a logarithmic one. Unfortunately (to me) this doesn’t seem like a case of “natural change”, vdr simply not being what it once was. “Something” is truly wrong, headed in the wrong direction, and needs fixing if possible. I’m hoping that whatever the problem/causes are and whatever the potential solutions are they can be flushed out here. To me this isn’t (and can’t be seen/addressed as) a “mod thing” or a “member thing”. This is a “vdr” thing. And it is going to take a collective effort to identify the problems and find and implement solutions.

Like you Sparks, I am disappointed (and baffled) by the participation in certain threads that crop up (not the reads, people actually posting). It just seems to be one of the manifestations of whatever it is going on (happening) here. It didn’t use to be that way. It use to be that more people would offer up an opinion, an observation, an experience, or ask a question based on something they read in a thread. What has struck me, concerns me, is that people, people still around, people who use to participate no longer do so (or do so MUCH less). I could only speculate on some of the possible reasons for this all. Is it that people are bored, the threads are boring, people are intimidated, the tone of the threads is “uninviting”? I don’t know. I’d like to find out. Sure there are plenty of people around that probably have the “appliance” view that you spoke of. But I think its more than that.

Both you and BJ seemed to confirm my speculation on some “tensions” (or what ever one wants to call it). My sense has been that perhaps it was something more than just a few (something there will always be from time to time) troublemakers. That perhaps it had spilled over beyond that. Perhaps I am wrong, I hope I am. If my “feelings” are correct though I hope this has or can be worked by all concerned. One of VDR’s hallmarks was always its “atmosphere”. Disagreements/differences are to be expected, even an occasional little riff or two. Anything more we all can agree needs to be avoided. Whether mod or member, everyone needs to give and receive respect. Members can’t view themselves as the oppressed masses and the mods as the oppressors. Conversely, the mods can’t view themselves as the parents and the members as their children. This is a partnership. I know that sounds cliché, but…

And before I forget… I know you guys did a survey a while back, tried to get some information/feedback. Unfortunately, given the number of respondents and the scope of the survey the results ended up not being particularly useful/meaningful. Oh well. Hopefully we can together get a different outcome this time.

Will split my response to the others who have posted thus far in to a seperate post...

Welshjim,

Thanks for speaking up. You refer to other more credible sites. So I’m clear, is it that you think (or a speculating) that vdr now has low (too low) credibility in terms of the quality and level of information and expertise it has to offer? Personally, I would agree that the mix or overall level of things is not (or effectively not) what it once was here. Now vdr was never a “top of the heap” type tech forum, but it certainly had something reasonable/viable to offer. Things that sufficiently could keep the interest and meet the needs of a well, and more, balanced membership. Is one of the problems that vdr has become boring/repetitive/uninteresting for many members, and as a result they have drifted off or reduced their participation? I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I’m just asking, throwing the idea out. Personally though, I think this idea has credence. I’m confused though when you say though that people are more sophisticated here though, ask tougher questions, etc (unless I misunderstood your initial statement and drift). Do you me here as in vdr, or at other sites?

I would have to agree that we seem to have dropped quite a bit on the “camaraderie scale” here. Hopefully we can turn that around.

As I said in my previous reply to BJ and Sparks, I too do not feel our major problem or the solution to what’s happened here lies mostly/predominantly in anything having to do with search engines or the board software. Not to be repetitive, but the search engine stuff is part of the equation in getting new members. I think our real problem deals with members already here or that were and might be brought back. And as for any board software changes in general, I’m not much in to the bells and whistles stuff. The current software (from a look/feel/functionality) standpoint is good enough for me. Other’s may want more, and that’s fine. But, I also do not think that the look and feel of the board software here any major part of the issues and their consequences that we have seen and are seeing.

Abhoth,

So it sounds like you too are saying sometime things get a little boring around here for your tastes. If this proves to be a common theme then I hope we can figure out a way to change it. And as for any “atmosphere” problems… Again, if this is indeed a widespread issue then it too must be addressed, and quickly. If not then it will make it more difficult, perhaps impossible, to deal with an resolve other issues that might exist.

You say you are aware of where some members might have drifted off too. It’s good that ya didn’t mention any specifics as to where, that isn’t necessary (or appropriate). But what would be helpful perhaps is to get a feel (put in a constructive way of course) for what these other places have that vdr doesn’t, what’s different, etc.

Once again the atmosphere (sorry to keep using that word, just looking for a generic, kind of catch all term) issue here comes up. Seems more and more like a way needs to be found to somehow turn this (or the perception) around. Obviously this can be a delicate subject to deal with. But if we all can take a step back, tread lightly, perhaps bury a few hatchets (not in anyone’s head) then it is possible. It may take time, but… Not to sound stupid or cliché, but it goes without question that it is vital that there be a combination of trust, tolerance, respect, and camaraderie (to use welshjim’s word) between and amongst both the members and those overseeing the site. And if that has gone or the level severally degraded we need to get it back.

As for rules and regulations, violations, and their enforcement… Another tough and sensitive one. And one that my perspective where there’s been blame and responsibility among both mods and members in regard to many of the problems/issues. On one hand members sometimes seem to know the rules/bounds, but almost say “I don’t care because I disagree with them” or “this about me and me alone”, their beliefs/feelings/values/whatever solely guide their actions/statements. It’s like perpetrating their own little act of defiance, coming from a completely selfish perspective. To me that is nonsense. I personally don’t think the rules/bounds in place here at vdr are overly burdensome. But regardless, just as with any community/group there are rules. Now a person has every right to voice their opinion/objection, question or try to effect changes in any rule/bound (if done properly). But they do not have the right to ignore or violate the rules.

On the flip side of this though, there often has been ambiguity, inconsistency, even heavy handedness in the enforcement of rules/bounds. Some of this surely could be attributed to the inexperience of a given mod, maybe simply a bad judgment, maybe just a bad hair day. Sometimes it has seemed like a “power play” deal though, and that is not good or acceptable. The exercise of authority has to be done judiciously and respectfully. Still other times it seems like maybe the rules to be enforced aren’t clear (which can apply when it comes to members too), or that the mods may not have sufficient or proper guidelines and agreement on what’s (for lack of a better phrase) right and wrong, when to act and not. If so, that’s something that can be corrected. I guess the bottomline (IMO) is that there need to be (certain) rules/bounds and they need to be both respected and enforced. But the rules/bounds themselves and the guidelines for enforcing them have to be clear. Ambiguity and inconsistency, on the part of either members or mods, results in problems for sure.

Anyway… It’s good to see the comments/input given thus far. Keep ‘em coming folks. This ain’t my thread, it’s everybody’s. I just started it. As I said before, there is no reason or benefit for people not to speak up. If there are problems it is to all our benefit to try and get them flushed out, sorted out, and hopefully find some resolutions.

Couple of quick points:

The survey; we had 122 responses if memory serves. Now out of 74,000 members that is nothing. But if the replies came almost entirely from the regular, active members (and I personally feel that is the case, others of my mod colleagues do not), then 122 responses is indeed a significant response. Folk will have to make their own minds up on that, it was an anonymous survey. FWIW, the vast majority of comments were extremely supportive of how the site was run. "Don't chnage anything" was a recurring comment.

Numbers of posts; I have been keeping a close eye on the numbers here, and at other forums, some Jupitermedia, some not. We actually have punching slightly above our weight when it comes to number of posts. If we had the same number of new members joining as other sites are getting, our post numbers would be equal to, or slightly above, theirs, by extrapolation. Which is not in any way meant to suggest that I'm trying to say that we don't have other issues that need to be addressed


I'd like to know what members think of the AUP, and how it's enforced? Although only JM can decide on what is in the AUP, we can certainly pass on members views on any changes that should be made.

Like I say Spark's, I think that survey (the responses) need to be take with a real grain of salt. There is plenty of room to question their validity, representative nature. Besides, if as you say " the vast majority of comments were extremely supportive of how the site was run. "Don't change anything" was a recurring comment" then I must say that does not jive with what I am seeing reflected in the level and trend of activity and participation here at vdr. It just doesn't fit. And as I also said, the nature of the questions was pretty narrowly defined. I think the very design of the survey was not (and may not have been intended) to get at many potential things. Just my opinion.

As for posting numbers, activity and such... I don't have any hard numbers, but my observations are that they are down. It is common these days to come back to the site after a day (sometimes more) and for any forum (particularly the typically more active one) not have the number of new or updated threads span more than half way down the page or so. That use to be unheard of around here. There just seems to be a disconnect/inconsitency between the numbers and reality to me. Conversely, if I observe other sites it does appear there is more activity. And the one thing that jumps out at ya is that I see A LOT more members online, hanging out at these sites. Even sites where the membership is smaller than vdr. People don't hang out here at all any more, and not all like they use to. Where/when people are online at a site they post, get involved. Where/when they are offline... Again, just my view/observations.

Regardless of the above, I do realize though that you see there are issues that need to be flushed out and addressed here. Hopefully, they can be.

I wonder if we should do another survey? Certainly that last one was a first attempt, and I think we could do another one much better. What does everyone think about that?

Doc, there is no question that the numbers are down on 6 months ago, and they are down by a lot. Around that time the number of members online stayed fairly constant for a while, the number of guests dropped through the floor, virtually overnight.

There is no doubt that other forums have vastly more members online. But all the busiest sites do have one thing in common - they run on Vbulletin 3, which has been specifically written to be search engine friendly, and get around the problem of indexing dynamically generated pages. I don't want to pretend that there aren't other important issues, which this thread will hopefully go a long way to getting resolved, but the search engine problem is without doubt one of the biggest difficulties that we currently face. Now the $64,000 question to me, is would more members come back to us if the place just had lots of new members joining and asking questions, and was just simply busier? Our average number of new members joining per day is 8.5. There are two other sites that are averaging over 200 every day.

I just googled for computer help forum ... VDr was down about 14th on the list, which isn't horrible. But better search engine performance/results would assist I'm sure.

A cleaner more feature rich BB system would be helpful too in my book... and it's a tech forum, would be only right to keep the software up to date eh? ;-)

A size reduction in the header banners would be a nice move, although that may be dictated by Jupiter and out of your hands... but I'm runnin' on a 19in. monitor @ 1280 x 1024 and the banners up top look pretty large... don't even want to see what that looks like on a smaller monitor running a lesser resolution!

As far as the "tension" that's been noticed around here.... my apologies for being unable to speak to that one. As I haven't noticed it... sure, over the years I've been involved in a few threads that have pushed the envelope. And have seen some folks get a little slap on the wrist... Haven't really noticed too much in the way of "heavy handedness" ...... Bottom line in that area is quite simple, obey the rules and no worries. And the mods MUST enforce those rules or the forums will die a very quick death! To be quite honest I've never read the AUP in a serious way, but it's really about common sense now isn't it. Don't be a jerk/idiot/mean people that suck type and you're good to go!

I frequent any number of forums, as others do... these days you can find places that are more specific to the issues you want to deal with and thus you go there with questions.... But, in my travels, VDr continues to have a very low rate of unanswered questions and a very helpful group of people answering those questions.

Just my latest 2 cents worth...

Quote:

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Originally posted by SuperSparks
I wonder if we should do another survey? Certainly that last one was a first attempt, and I think we could do another one much better. What does everyone think about that?

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I have received two invitations, in emails, from VDR to take a survey in the recent past. Both times I have tried to gain access to the survey, only to have the page blocked by either my hosts file or some other protection I may have in place, and therefore could not participate. So, if you do another survey, how about placing it here in the forum?

FWIW, I have visited other forums from time to time, and always come back to VDR, where I feel the posters are more courteous and understanding of the "non-tech" people, who do post here....( such as myself), and take that extra step so the person will understand the answer. The lack of 'technical snobbishness' here @ VDR I find to be very appealing.

I have no particular insights into how to fix the dwindling membership that this thread speaks to, but certainly would be willing to participate in anyway to help VDR.
Just my 2cents.
poppy

Poppy, that survey invitation in your email is actually a Jupitermedia survey. The one that we did was done independently by one of the mods here with input by the rest of us. We would do it like that again, if we were to run another, and it will be kept entirely within the forums.

Got it!....Thanks Nick.

Sparks,

I don’t know myself whether another survey would work or not. I am hoping that this thread might open some doors, that people will speak out (good or bad) in numbers. Whether it is a thread like this or a survey it is critical for the membership to speak out/up in force. Silence will for sure accomplish nothing.

As I’ve said, personally I don’t think a change in software is the key or will contribute significantly to solving things here at vdr. But I am certainly not against it if it will help. If it can contribute in any meaningful way to turning things around here at vdr then Jupiter should be encouraged to make it happen as soon as possible. And if I am wrong, and changing the software is the key or a major key to turning around what’s been happening then fine. I would be more than happy to have my views/opinions be wrong. My focus is one thing: righting the vdr ship.

Would members come back? I’m with you, I don’t know. But my hope is that they would if we do the right things, make the necessary changes. What ever they are.

Abhoth,

I agree with your statements in regard to members and the rules. To me it just boils down to common sense, common courtesy, and a recognition that there are people here of all types/believes/backgrounds/ages/etc. I have no problem with people expressing what ever view they have, if it is done right. On the other side of things, there absolutely have to be rules and they need to be enforced. Those enforcing them though must do so judiciously, fairly, and consistently. I am of the opinion that perhaps some of the rules/bounds need to more clearly defined (to both the mods and members), that the AUP alone does not provide enough specifics, guidelines. Also, having power does not mean one has to use it. Another one of those clichés I hate but, sometimes the most power and influence lies with those that don’t or rarely use it (whew, I think I was just profound. LOL).

Poppy4,

Your view of the treatment of posters at vdr and lack of “technical snobbishness” has always been one of (IMO) the hallmarks of vdr. It has been and is a very valuable asset for vdr to have. I would hate to see that ever change.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think it is critical and worth the while of as many members as possibile to input here. Good or bad. If things are fine, then say so. If something is wrong, then say so. It doesn't matter if ya just post something brief or in pieces. But do take the time to participate and express your views/concerns, likes and dislikes.