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DrMDJ, You are right as far as going into them in depth. Maybe I did this one backwards as I was trying to show the Mobo and then tie in everything else more as an introduction than any in depth discussion. Trying to use the Mobo as a physical reference point with the other components and perephials as add ons and/or add ins. This way everything is in reference to something else physically.
Stop and think what we have done so far for those that have followed along. They will in all probability be able to troubleshoot more effectivelly by picturing in their minds the area of their problem using mental pictures of their hardware and then overlaying with their operating system. These two together is what allows the "work" to be done that results in useable information on the face of their monitor.
As an example, you boot up your computer, it comes up, you're on your desktop and everthing is working that you have tried. You decide to bring up Internet Elplorer to check the weather and after you connect to your ISP and your home page comes up, you then move to the address bar and choose your weather site and bang, you get a fatal exception. You are in a "freeze" condition. The mouse moves but you can't select anything. You try the three fingered salute - Ctrl Alt Delete - nothing. You sit back and know you have a problem. You analyze and realize also you are going to have to power down using the power off switch and it is an incorrect procedure which means a scandisk will take place when you power back up. You take the plunge and power down. Knowing you should leave the "puter" down for a while allows you to take a break and also to think your prblem through.
This is where a mental picture of your computer jumps into your mind and you mentally start disconnecting everything that you know would not cause the problem. Guess what you have left - a bare bones system. You picture this and realize that you were operational in windows explorer. That means the power supply, fans, Mobo, BIOS, CPU, RAM, Hard Drive, and operating system are ok. ( You are picturing this in your mind.) What you have done is checked hardware against software in your mind. There's nothing wrong so far. And then it hits you that the possibility exists that your Internet Explorer is goofed up and what is that. A bunch of files. And you remember you have an IE Repair tool. You now have your plan and you power your computer back up. A scandisk runs which tells you to take your computer down properly in the future. (Like this was something you had control over. The computer comes up and you have your desktop. And I look for my IERepair shortcut, find it, and click on it. I follow the instructions and lo and behold I am able to bring up the "puter" and go online with no "fatal exception".
You will in almost every case be able to isolate to a software or hardware area. If you can't go any further than this, then this is where VirDr comes into play.
So this is what I feel we are doing, helping people to understand their system and enable more effective troubleshooting by using the K.I.S.S. principle.
I realize this was very brief and short. If you see I missed something please correct.
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Hi all
this question is purely motherboard related (*).
It is about clock rates.
Bus speeds are rated in megahertz
somebody already mentioned the difference in bus speed on ISA/EISA and PCI, and told us an AGP is a souped up PCI, and then we get to Front-Side-Bus speeds.
I saw talk about north and south bridges...
I also have a question about buswidth, data paths and bandwidth.
for instance, 8bit, sixteen bit, 32bit
For instance, when one sees the difference in memory slots, what did the change do?
30/32 pin simms
70 pin simm
168 DIMM
(what do DDR and RIMM use, I dunno)
is that also why there were all these changes in CPU slots and sockes?
what is the implication the number of pins on a CPU or its connector has?
What's it all do?
how does it work?
what's the importance?
why are there more than one "frequency" used?
will the quality of the powersupply play a role in creating clean frequencies?
will it matter if there is electrical or "signal" noise?
I always wondered what's the BIOS setting spread spectrum is for.
well, I hope I did not throw a curveball.
I thought all of it was mobo related...
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you noticed the (*)?
I remember talk about Crystals and PLL from my HAM radio days, and I see that a motherboard has a at least one or two crystals.
Some peripheral cards have one or more crystals too.
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Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
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Good Morning All, Jaak did a good job with questions this morning. Attention to detail is important. So I'll get another cup of coffee and check back later after ya'all have had a chance to mull the questions over.
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Everything in a computer works in timepulses or clock cycles. These clock cycles are generated by swinging crystals in the system. Each task is done within one or more clock cycles. You can only accomplish that much work within one clock cycle and if that isn't enough to do the job at hand, then the next clock cycle must be waited for to continue...and so on.
These clock cycles also apply to the busses in the system. Bus speed is determined by the speed of these clock cycles (or multiples thereof: fx. PCI = 1/3 or 1/4 FSB depending on implemented divider in the system). Bus speeds are also dependant on bus bandwith. A 32 bit bus is able to transport double the amount of data in comparison to a 16 bit bus - at the same clock cycle lenght (time between clock cycles).
The same applies to different RAM types: the broader the bus transporting data to and from the RAM, the more data can be moved pr. clock cycle. Well, almost true - 72 pin and 76 pin RAM have in fact the same bandwidth, since the extra 4 pins are not used for data transport. But that's another story...
Pin numbers on processors also indicate bandwidth - how much data can be transported to/from the processor pr. clock cycle.
So to sum up. Two things determine transportation speed in a system: bandwidth and clock cycle/bus speed. Different parts of the system are designed to run at different speeds but work best together if tuned to each others speed in terms of multiples or fractions.
This also explains the need for L1 & L2 cache on processors. The processor today is so much faster than the common data bus (up to maybe 8 or 10 times faster depending on processor type) that the system cannot deliver data as fast as the processor wants it. Result: the processor spends a lot of time doing nothing (ie. "system idle") while waiting for data.
To resolve this a data buffer is then created in front of the processor (Level2 cache) where data can be stored while the processor is active and not needing data. To speed things up further a L1 cache is added right next to the processor core to minimize transportation distance (some now even talk of L3 cache in front of L2...) which in turn is fed by the L2 cache. That way system idle time is kept low when the s... really hits the fan inside the system.
Keeping bus speed and other frequencies at nice rounded levels adjusted to each other (multiples and fractions) further ensures a smooth running machine with minimized idle time.
By now it ought to be obvious why OverClocking works. You step up the bus speed inside the system and make the crystals swing faster, and thereby reduce the time between clock cycles in the system - everything runs faster and more data is pushed around in the system pr. time unit - which is all that really count. At some point the speed will exceed the limit of the involved devices/busses...and the system crashes. You've found your overclocking limit.
A lot of different parameters in this game may be adjusted in the bios, but I suggest we save this talk for later when the discussing of bios comes up..?!
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
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Ok, boys and girls...please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to throw a wet blanket on anybody here. But it seems to me (IMHO that is) that we need to endeavor a little more to keep the discussions a little more general. Detailed, yes; but please keep in mind that at least 50%, probably more, of the readers are non-techs; just enthusiasts who want to learn more on how this stuff works, but a little at a time. Gotta watch the "information overload". If they wanna know ALL the nitty gritty "high-tech" https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ details, I think all of us have plenty of sites in our Favorites to refer them to for more reading. Just my two cents. Please don't shoot me at sunrise.....
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Okey dokey most illustrious one. (Shades of Operation Delta. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ ) That is is hard not to do - get carried away on something sometimes. And to contributors what they are saying is simple. What a learning experince we are all having. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ But people exposed to something like this will probably recall seeing it when they are ready for it.
What I like is that we all at one time or another have made note of this and get us back on track.
To me personally, I flat don't have the foggiest sometimes what each one of you have said about a particular thing and that's when I have homework to do.
Ok then, back to questions. Talking about the various slots on the Mobos. The ISA slots came before the PCI slots, which are needed for today's cards. Why is that?
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For the same reason radio came before television https://discussions.virtualdr.com/. The technology just wasn't there yet to increase the bus and clock speeds. PCI came along in the 90's (can't remember when) that blew ISA out of the water. However, there were so many ISA cards still out (and still being manufactured-albeit considerably less and less), mobo makers had to still include ISA slots to accomodate them. We are right now in a phase where ISA is slowly being dropped from mobo designs in favor of all PCI cards (they are just sitting back and watching ISA die a slow death) https://discussions.virtualdr.com/.
Interesting article HERE.
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-27-2001).]
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I am reposting the statement made at the beggining of this thead.
"Where we are going with this is that when we are finished you will be able to picture in your mind the mobo and what is plugged in or attached to it. And this will help you in troubleshooting, modding, asking questions and the like. How many times have you asked yourself when reading a question on these forums, "I wonder where that is". Now you will know. You could even copy and paste one of these mobos into a file on your computer for reference or print it and make notes on it."
I believe we have accomplished this. Please add any comments you may have or ask any questions. Then, tonight, A new Weekly Subject will start on BIOS. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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If you'll forgive the ramblin's of an ol' Irishman for a couple of minutes?
Unlike many of you, my history of computers only goes back about three years. When i first became interested, it was very hard for me to relate the inner workings of a computer to something i was familiar with.
Then i came across a tutorial written for total newbies and the bells finally chimed.(Can't, for the life of me remember where i found it tho' https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ ). It had to do with thinking of the "system" as a human body. With the motherboard as the heart, the CPU as the brain, the vid card,memory modules,PCI slots, etc. as lungs, liver,kidneys that let the rest of it function. And the "bus" as a system of roadways,like the blood vessels that tied it all together and delivered the information(food).
To clarify the history and evolution of motherboards, it talked about the "roads" starting out as wagon trails, then evolving into one lane gravel roads. then paved two lane highways and eventually 4/6 lane freeways.
For me, it was an eye opener and a way to percieve what was going on in the depths of this consarned ol' machine. May not work for everyone, but shows that understanding of these electronic marvels needs to be connected to something that beginners can relate to.
As i mentioned, may not be the best way for everyone, but has helped me so that i can now follow along when the talk goes "techie" as it inevitably does.
I thank you all very much for this kind of tutorial thread! And you can be assured your work and wisdom is not wasted here. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Get off my Interface!!
[This message has been edited by snarfll (edited 06-27-2001).]
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When does the sun rise in D.C...? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
I'm aware my last post was a bit on the heavy technical side, but when somebody asks some questions I sometimes get a little carried away (15 yrs in the business does that to you)....On the other hand, nobody expects everybody to understand everything. We all have different levels of understanding the technics inside our beloved PCs.
I think this is not a stricktly newbees site, no..? I think there's room for more experienced people also - the right mixture, if you see my point.
And still it's perfectly legal (almost required.. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/) to ask questions if you don't understand this or that, yes...? That goes for newbees as well as techies.
Having said this, I fully agree that this line of threads should be kept at a moderate technical level where many people are able to follow the talk and explanations.
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
[This message has been edited by kallikru (edited 06-27-2001).]
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This thread is now concluded. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Hi,
well, seems the question on clock cycles served its purpose.
and please, when/IF wet blankets are needed to douse anything truly derailing the topic, throw them on... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
I just wanted some imput on the meaning and implementation of it in buses,
and we got some.
The questions had to do with my little observation about the meaninglesness of very high clock doubling in CPU.
some devices simply don't have the speed
some devices simply don't need the speed
some components can be kept waiting because the other stuff cannot keep up even when the motherboard resource it was allocated has ample oomph (iow, a bottleneck device is holding everything up)
on the other hand, a device you put in a machine is sometimes not used to the maximum of its capabilities because the motherboard is not up to it.
for instance;
A superfast high end AGP card in an old mobo, with a slow chipset and CPU, will not yield its best output.
A high spindle speed and high end hard drive in an LX440 (or even worse, a TX430) mobo would be overkill, but it would indeed increase storage space...
Having said that, I add that these things are great to move into a newer box, so they are perfect for the future upgrade... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
I also made a general observation that the more cards one plonks in a machine, the slower it gets.
that is because the machine has to divide its attention to more things, and has to deal with more data streams.
so once again it boils down to this.
If you want to put a lot of devices into it, the more capable and balanced the motherboard/CPU combination, the better.
Try to not introduce bottlenecks.
And moneywise you should consider that "there is always a point of diminishing return".
Jaak
the weekly subjects continue here
http://discussions.virtualdr.com/For...ML/003569.html
Weekly Subject -07- BIOS
