Actually there is no single person who decides the design of the main site homepage. That belongs to the design dept. along with a number of other individuals. I have very little, if anything, to do with it.Quote:
Originally posted by Train
His higher, who dictates, probably is the one who's ear you really need to get a hold of.
We have all been there.
Exactly, what im asking is does anyone have a proposal on how to fix this? We have no control over what people post. BJQuote:
Originally posted by DrMDJ
BJ, the issue is not one of changing the questions new members ask. People need to ask the questions they have. I think it simply boils down to the fact that there have to be enough (what ever that means) questions/topics of a sufficient level/type to provide a balance that will keep more knowledgeable users engaged/interested. It's not that anyone has any problems having what might be called lower level questions asked or answering them. But when these become too predominant it becomes a problem. People get bored, burnt out. They need things that will stimulate and challenge them, are more in line with their interests, provide something that will contribute to their growth.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally posted by BIG JOHN
Exactly, what im asking is does anyone have a proposal on how to fix this? We have no control over what people post. BJ
There have been some suggestions made already. The point to consider here is that we will have to build it in whatever frorm it takes. We could start another thread just for this. VirDr Continuing Improvement. Agree on what we think would be a good area to try and then develop it. This is not a quick thing to be done though.
But as our members become more experienced they need to have subject matter that they will come here for. How many times do we link a member to a site that handles a particular subject more in depth that a member is asking about?
The consideration here is that it would have to be done one step at a time. And we already are discussing many ideas. And ideas that are good. Will VirDr have to become more organized to accomplish what we are talking about? Probably. Maybe teams?
The total effort that we are looking at has many important parts.
Anyway we go the plate is getting kinda full. Rather exciting though. :) :)
~sigh~ I can't seem to keep these short. So I broke it down. Please skim past what you like, but I would ask that you take a look at the Jupitermedia Sites part below. It's a tangible experiment we can try that illustrates how a newbie might feel at our home page.
Nix: I meant no offense directed at you or any particular member, so please don't take any. Please. Let's not go down that road. We were asked by SuperSparks to contribute the good, the bad, the ugly, so I aired a pet peeve and hope I explained clearly why I feel the way I do about it. It's just my .02, no comment(s) are meant to single out any particular member, ever, nor are they meant to be hurtful.
Reasons for drifting away: Doc has expressed frustration in that he is not getting the answers he's looking for. I have steered clear of some because I didn't want to start a firestorm. But I'm just gonna spit it out. Speaking for myself, I've barely been here in a year because of 1) Boredom and 2) discord and constant, sniping and griping over trivial, petty garbage.
1) Boredom. Doc and Linda are heading in the right direction. We need diversity, and need to keep up with what's going on out there. As I expressed earlier, I'm much more the artsy type. So the creative side of me has no outlet here at Vdr. It's a source of frustration that I can't come here, to my cyber 'home', and exchange ideas, create, learn, grow in the more artistic area of computing. It is, after all, still about computing. It's been brought up before, but we always get pointed to the sister site. Plain and simple, I'm kind of dug in here (human nature) and don't want to go to a sister site. Also, steering a member elsewhere just might result in them taking up residence elsewhere (i.e. a well-rounded, diversified computing board). Runs the risk of losing them altogether. There are a lot of great sites out that that offer graphics and design forums, but let's face it, they just ain't VDr. I'd rather stay 'home' and see more on the menu. So I for one would love to see more offered in the graphics and design arena. That area has the potential to draw a huge following. If we drew artists and designers of the same calibur as some of our more technically inclined members, I truly feel those 'creative' type boards could take off and fly. Some of the boards that our long lost members are now at have graphics and design boards incorporated into the more technical oriented boards and they work, so it could work here too. Also, those newer, more artistic members are gonna have PC troubles, and they would only naturally tend to slip into the other forums here to seek help. That would keep the juices flowing.
2) Discord. I hate going here and this is hard to post. Feel free to edit it out if it opens wounds that have been closed. But it had great bearing on why I personally drifted away. About a year ago or so is when things came to a head for me. Emotionally wiped out from real life crises, it hurt to see what was going on, mostly in Feedback. Maybe I was being overly sensitive. '04 was a $*% year, I lost two close loved ones to prolonged illness. It sickened me to spend a day on oncology wing, come here for a break, and witness what was going on. Bad things in real life left me with little tolerance for what I saw. The petty bickering, sniping, jabs at others over trivial (and non computing issues), grand exits, only to return after BJ had bent over backwards to appease the offendee. Mods giving more rope, but it was never enough, mods accused of heavy-handedness when they tried to maintain control. Threads shut down for inappropriate content and/or sniping that has worn out it's welcome, only to have the sword promptly taken up again in a brand new post. Geez, what the heck are the mods supposed to do in a situation like that? They were over a barrel, it was a vicious cycle. All perspective seemed to have flown the coop. When it gets reduced to that level, mabye it's time to get away from the PC and get things put back in perspective. Kids with no hair and faces white as sheets, enduring chemo and facing an uncertain future had better attitudes than some of what was floating around here. There will always be disagreements, but a good healthy one over a tech issue can lead to discussion, enlightenment and a positive outcome. That other stuff, it only hurts the lot of us. We've got a good thing going here, we've got great mods, we've got BJ, why muck it up? And BJ, I know how hard and long you struggled with the OT issue, bud. My own trepidation was that it would become a breeding ground for bad things. But since it's going smoothly and has become a successful endeavor, then well done! That's what counts.
Emailing old members: I liked frebo's idea of emailing old members very much. I personally wasn't referring to a mass mailing of the entire member roster. To clarify: we all know old members that we are especially fond of or have high regard for that we haven't seen here in a long while, who used to frequent quite regularly. When I read frebo's suggestion, a half dozen or so names popped right into my head. (Dodge, you were one of them, and it's good to see you back here and posting. Truly!) Another currently active member might recall a different group of names. If each of us have a handful of members we would like to see back, nothing wrong with emailing them and telling them they're missed and some fresh ideas and exciting changes are being mulled over for this board. And it should be kept on a personal level. Not a mass mailing that is auto generated when a member hasn't posted in xx number of months and signed generically by "your friends at Vdr." That could come across as self-serving, impersonal and could well send a message that body count matters more than the person themselves, so therefore it has a high potential for backfiring.
*Jupitermedia Sites: This is not a bash at JM, it's more of a site test, it shows us how a newbie could feel at our home page. Try this for yourself, you'll see what I mean. What you experience will hit home better than I can describe in words. Pay close attention to your first reactions when you hit the Home Page of a site who's content you're unfamiliar with.
- Google "discussion board Jupitermedia"
- Randomly browse the hits, choose at least 4 sites that you know nothing about and enter
- Once in, immediately click on "Home" to view the home page layout.
- Now gauge your reactions. Was your visit a pleasant experience? Did you know within a few seconds, clearly and concisely, what the site was about? Were you made to feel welcome and invited in? Did you even want to go in, and if so, did you readily find a way to get there? Would you go back?
Kat you hit the proverbial nail right on the head, wonderful post by the way:D. The problems you were referring to way back when were caused by a group of members & I wont mention any names who made it thier sole agenda to disrupt & cause as many problems as they could & yes I know it had a major effect on some of our treasured members. That was very painful to me & the mod staff, there were even a couple who were causing us problems recently by coming here under another user name & IP address.
Unfourtunately we being out there on the net we are going to attract members that we really dont need here in addition to the good ones, it's just a fact of life. I have always tried to make this a site with a family feeling, a place where people could go & have a good time & mingle with other members, a home away from home so to speak. We all want to heal the hurt & disruption that has occured in the past & once again make this the best place to be on the internet. With everyones help I know it can be done. Thanks for listening. BJ
Hi BJ,
I'm so glad you're not upset with me for posting that one part. I was really quite reluctant. ;) So thank you for listening, felt good to get that off my chest. I have faith we can get beyond those bad times too, and get back on track. You've always done a great job of keeping that 'family' atmostphere here, honestly, some days I just don't know how you pull it off. But with our atmosphere intact, and all the good ideas being tossed around in this thread so far, once we get a plan and get on a roll, the future's gonna look so bright here we're gonna need shades!! :cool:
Ive been following this thread for a bit now and I must say
Excellent
You guys have done a real good job, this is what makes our community.
We have had problems recently as BJ has mentioned but we have done away with that and we can now focus on our main objectives, Virtual Dr and the members.
We have all played a part in the life of Vdr and if we all stick together and work as a team we can take Vdr into the future.
Keep it going people:)
Indeed, that was the group of troublemakers that I referred to right at the beginning of this thread. It's good to see that others who weren't privy to what we mod staff were could also see what was going on. Thanks KatMac, for the words of support, what an insightful post that was :) But we certainly learned a thing or two from that business, I doubt that would ever happen again.
On the boredom issue, it would certainly be good to see more of the infomational / educational type threads, a lot more in fact. But we do need to make sure we don't forget the core purpose of the site, which is to help people with computer problems. And speaking personally, I enjoy the straightforward problem solving threads more than anything else, I don't think I'll ever find it boring. Nix mentioned that every other thread is a Hijack this problem, but that is just the nature of the biggest problem facing computer users at the present time. At least we keep them in one place here, but every other forum is getting exactly the same questions/issues that we are.
You guys are welcome for the words of support. As mentioned, I'd surely like to see a graphics/design area, there are some whiz bang folks around here who rarely get to show that side of their talent and I'd love to learn from them. But if it breaks from the core objective too much, well then I'll understand.
SSparks: I was rereading some earlier posts here. I have a question about the new upgrade, and how you mentioned the software will help with Search ranking. Is there a site out there that has already implemented the version that VDr. will be using that we can take a peek at?
Hi again Kat, it should look similar to this. BJ
http://forums.datamation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1
Hi All,
I have been coming to VDr for years and you folks have saved my bacon several times. Not only with direct help, but also with my reading about problems that mirror mine. I have always received good reliable information that has gotten me out of some real messes.
I am a tech school grad (Brown College) and I didn't learn everything in the classroom. My gratitude goes to people like P3-450, Big John, Photolady and the rest. I have directed many people, with computer problems, to VDr. Yes, I have other forums that I go to, but with other problems. This is still the best site I visit that has the best information on OS. I am still running 98se sp1 and IE-6 and love it. I would not trade it for anything. I have kept up on all the spy programs along with AVG 7.
I have to say, I have learned more from you people than any 10 of my textbooks from school.
Keep up the good work and the world will beat a path to your door.
Kindest regards,
Allthumbs
Version 3 that we're upgrading to implements an indexing feature to aid search engine spiders, who have difficulty with dynamic links (which all the topic links are). So they tradtionally do poorly with search engine rankings. The new version changes thisQuote:
Originally posted by KatMac
You guys are welcome for the words of support. As mentioned, I'd surely like to see a graphics/design area, there are some whiz bang folks around here who rarely get to show that side of their talent and I'd love to learn from them. But if it breaks from the core objective too much, well then I'll understand.
SSparks: I was rereading some earlier posts here. I have a question about the new upgrade, and how you mentioned the software will help with Search ranking. Is there a site out there that has already implemented the version that VDr. will be using that we can take a peek at?
KatMac,
DrMDJ has started a tremendous thread as can be seen by the posts and SuperSparks referred to the good, the bad, and ugly. So let it all come out and in the spirit of how we are talking, sort of positive like, we are able to address all issues.
This is the time to get it off our chests. You, Linda, and all the rest are certainly letting the real VirDr shine through.
So don't be shy and I say that for all. Think it - post it - we need it.
And I for one like to see other people with strong feelings that believe in VirDr. (But Kat, I did not realize you could hold forth like this. :D Nice, really nice. :) ) And don't stop now. I believe you are on a roll. :) :)
I feel if it is said right, said thoughtfully, then pretty much anything can be said. And you proved that KatMac (as have others). I started this thread to get at the problems/issues, all of them. And as I said from the outset, some of them might be delicate, sensitive, etc. Nonetheless I felt it was both time and possible to get all the cards on the table. As long as people were (and are) thoughtful/"smart" about what they said and how the said it I felt everyone here (including the powers to be) could (and should) be able to hear what peope had to say and (if need be) discuss it rationally and non-emotionally. Having some things "bottled up" is not good, and is something that has perhaps brought us to this point we have come to (and this thread). So it is time to uncork the bottle. Gently of course, for if it is not done this way it will explode in all our faces.Quote:
I have steered clear of some because I didn't want to start a firestorm. But I'm just gonna spit it out.
Kat,
I think that VDR should add a design/graphics conference. In addition to that I think that VDR should add the following conferences:
Windows Server 2003
Small Business Server 2003
Windows SharePoint Services / SharePoint Portal Server
There are lots of people who are working on upgrading their skill sets in these areas plus there are also lots of small business owners, who are trying to migrate to W2003 or SBS 2003 in their drive to deploy WSS or SPS extranets.
It would be nice to add the major programming languages such as Visual Studio .NET 2003, which includes VB .NET, ASP .NET and C# to VDR list of conferences.
Developers sometimes have graphics and design related issues, so adding this conference would provide one stop shopping. Developers also tend to have the most up-to-date knowledge on the OS and all forms of malware, etc. So that becomes a win-win situation. Likewise, as more and more instances of SharePoint are deployed, end-users will want to have a place to go for answers. Why not have VDR be that one central point.
BTW, over a year ago, I was referred to the VDR sister site for developers and server software. After visiting that site over a dozen times, I gave up on it because it had almost zero activity. This may be part of the reason that a number of VDR registered members have not been seen for quite a while.
Cheers,
Linda
;)
Ah. Sorry I misunderstood ya BJ. You are right, no one (mods or members) can control what people do or don't post overall. And given this, it does indeed present some difficulties and limitations in terms things that tangibly can be done to raise the bar (so to speak) and diversify in the area of postings. I sure haven't been able to come up with "the" answer.Quote:
Exactly, what im asking is does anyone have a proposal on how to fix this? We have no control over what people post.
A few things that could perhaps contribute to the desired end though...
- Perhaps, as LindaHewitt touched on, there is a need for some new forums devoted to certain topics/areas.
- Efforts could be made (mods taking the lead role) to initiate threads specifically targeted at promoting discussions and information exchange on topic/areas of interest to members.
- Efforts could be made at times (again, by mods) to intercede in to existing threads and (once the user had gotten their answer of course) perhaps attempt to steer them in a more expanded or broad based direction.
Like I say, just a couple thoughts. And even if they were all done they would not offer the full solution.
As I recall here it has been mentioned by some that they feel that there are competing, better, more specific resources or forums out there from which to get answers/help. In terms of what? If there are areas/topics/interests/questions in which you do not see vdr as a viable/useful resource for then what are they? What in these regards is vdr lacking (or others offering)? I know some have offered up examples/info on this (Linda just did, again), but...
We did discuss the the idea of adding some new forums to the site in our Moderators forum a little while ago. We wanted to get the upgrade done first, but we are certainly open to suggestions.
DrMDJ,
Here is something else that VDR could do. Set up a conference and maybe a link from the homepage to a webpage, which has the best quotes. Quotes should be much as you would expect to see on a book jacket but there could be a link to the conference / thread with the success stories. Success stories would reflect how VDR saved my bacon, etc.
Obviously, VDR might want to set up a conference for this and then pick the best ones to post on the webpage, which is linked to the VDR homepage. What is posted on the webpage, should be short comments which are extracted from the conference thread.
Is there a way that there could be a success story thread in every conference, which would stay at the top of the conference. I know that VDR can do stickies but users cannot post into these threads. Is there some other category, which would allow the thread to stay at or near the top of the page and allow members
This would be great for visitors and it would be great for the registered VDR members who are posting.
Linda
Hi Linda, stickies are generally use for info only & they are locked but they can also be left open. BJ
And some of these suggested forums would be on going educational types as we have talked about.
If people come to Virtual Dr initially for help then it stands to reason they would stay around to learn more if there to learn. I wonder if that is where we made a mistake. Not growing with our members. How many have we got? 74K plus? Why ignore a huge ready made resource that is already in place?
Let's see we get our upgrade, get our search terms right for the search engines, and give our more experienced members something to dig their teeth into. And we might just be leading the pack after awhile. Thank you for all who have posted so far. I plumb love it. :) :)
As usual, All I see in this Thread are what i call "The Usual Members" The Long Time Members..Quite a few Mods n Seniors have still not poped in here to Express their views...Loads of the Members from the Majority of Forums either can't be bothered or don't care less....Hows about some of you Smooth Talking Mods, Seniors giveing them a reminder!! Just a sugestion!
I must say that lots of those Links that's been given within this Thread to the Related Sites, Don't Interest me n are slow...I still Prefer VDRs Layout to theirs..Just my Personal Likeing..
Maybe it's worth changing the name of this forum to "Feedback about this site" or something more obvious.
I think that this title is just fine, although I might have picked something else in the beginning, I think that it does the job. After all, in a few short days, we have gotten over 10 papes of comments.
I think people click on threads because of the number of posts and views. Everyone wants to know what is going on.
Linda
But as has been mentioned, the responses are from long time users, not too many newbies. Speaking for myself as a user, The forum/thread title(s) influences me a great deal in determining what I click on and what I pass by.
Discussion Home , although that is the correct wording, most folks do not realise it means the "list of forums" as is the case here at vdr.
Possibly a better way of naming it so folks can recognize it for what it is might help.
Just a idea, but have run into the discussion misconception before.
Where are you referring to exactly?
I think the suggestion about threads that are resolved, that Linda and others have mentioned, can be a powerful tool for this forum......people who are looking for the solution are in a hurry, because they can't stand their pc not functioning properly.....and that alone I think will attract people.......and for those who want to go deeper the threads are in their respective forums.......and of course a link to this kind of thread should be prominent on the home page.
poppy
edit:....that was synergystic....I linked to where Train posted below me, and using firefox, the tab says..."Virtual Dr A community where computing problems get solved.".....so somebody at JM....recognizes the value of 'solved'......:D ....nice layout btw.
http://www.virtualdr.com/
In the left pane.
Believe He's referring to the home page on the left "Discussions Home". Seems pretty weak to me...
Ah ok. As I said, the main site page is outside my purview. I can pass along some of the suggestions to the site editor though. Perhaps "Tech-help Forums" would be more apropos
Yes, but even if we made those changes how would we know their problems are fixed and edit their own title and put "(Resolved)" to let other members know? Remember some members don't even reply to let us know problems are fixed. Yes, some members probably would but getting everybody to do it is another story.Quote:
Originally posted by poppy4
I think the suggestion about threads that are resolved, that Linda and others have mentioned, can be a powerful tool for this forum......people who are looking for the solution are in a hurry, because they can't stand their pc not functioning properly.....and that alone I think will attract people.......and for those who want to go deeper the threads are in their respective forums.......and of course a link to this kind of thread should be prominent on the home page.
poppy
In my opinion, it would be just as easy if they replied and let us know their problem got fixed.
Now that would be a a big help and one I have seen elsewhere.Quote:
Originally posted by JPNYC
Ah ok. As I said, the main site page is outside my purview. I can pass along some of the suggestions to the site editor though. Perhaps "Tech-help Forums" would be more apropos
ecross.....
"In my opinion, it would be just as easy if they replied and let us know their problem got fixed."
I couldn't agree with you more......their are however some threads that are solved....and come to an apparent positive conclusion.....and those threads could be pointed to...
poppy
I see some comments here about people's particpation in this thread (or not), possible relations to the title, etc. I'm not saying I couldn't have picked a better title, but... I honestly don't think that's been much of an issue here. There's been over 3300 views of it (in some form). Now I realize that does not mean 3300 people have actually viewed it, but.. I suspect people are seeing this thread all right, or know it is here and what it is about. They just aren't posting to it. I've seen quite a number of people viewing the thread that haven't posted. Why? I don't know. To me (and I've said it earlier in this thread) it is just another sign of thet reduced participation, apathy, not caring, etc that seems to have set in at vdr.
Poppy and Ecross,
Ecross wrote:
"Yes, but even if we made those changes how would we know their problems are fixed and edit their own title and put "(Resolved)" to let other members know? Remember some members don't even reply to let us know problems are fixed. Yes, some members probably would but getting everybody to do it is another story. "
If I am a user and VDR has just saved my bacon, I might want to shout that to the heavens and post something like this.
"VDR is a winner. I just spent 2 weeks with vendors trying to get this problem (Blue Screen of Death) resolved and then I posted my problem here and the wonderful VDR community helped me find a solution within 2 days. I sure am glad that there is a VDR."
LindaHewitt
Dallas, Texas
That is the type of success story 'comments' that VDR should consider posting on the homepage "success stories" webpage. Granted members may write a much longer tale but VDR should be looking for good quotes, which best represent the VDR experience. If VDR can get these quotes from a diverse crowd with a friendly interface and the search engine problem fixed, then VDR should see a dramatic increase in visitors and registered members.
Just my 2 cents.
JPNYC,
The "Discussions Home" list of forums is a different list of forums than what is displayed further down the VDR home page under the heading of "VirtualDr Discussions By Topic".
I think that the "VirtualDR Discussions By Topic" is a more complete list of forum conferences. I don't see any reason to keep the "Discussions Home". Certainly there is no point of having duplicate information on the homepage.
Just my opinion of course.
Linda
Another thing I notice which could be a problem is the color highlighting employed to let you know where you are, blends in so well with the header color that I didn't notice it for a while. Changing that would make some difference, in my opinion.
One other thing I will say on the issue of people participating in this thread or not (and which was suggested to me privately)... It certainly could be that people have views/etc that they'd like to express, but are afraid or what ever about doing it unless it can be done anonymously. If this is the case then perhaps a mechanism (survey or what ever) to provide anonymous input could be set up. If people want such a thing then maybe they can just speak up here and say that.
I realize of course there are problems with anonymous surveys and such in terms of the input that's gotten, including the validity of some of the results.
Right click both and select properties they both link to the same page. I just prefer using the one in the left pane as that is where I find them or rather, did find them on the the old forums I did use before arriving here.Quote:
Originally posted by LindaHewitt
JPNYC,
The "Discussions Home" list of forums is a different list of forums than what is displayed further down the VDR home page under the heading of "VirtualDr Discussions By Topic".
I think that the "VirtualDR Discussions By Topic" is a more complete list of forum conferences. I don't see any reason to keep the "Discussions Home". Certainly there is no point of having duplicate information on the homepage.
Just my opinion of course.
Linda
Doc,
I think an anonymous input survey (or like you say, what ever) may be one more way to find out why some people are unhappy here.
Most of what has been suggested so far, sound like good ideas that if implemented, could help out a lot to improve Vdr, but it doesn't seem like these problems are serious enough to cause long time members to leave, and prevent new people from coming here (at least not to me).
Some of these people who have left, mods and old members can be seen on the other tech sites commenting about locked and closed threads on Vdr. This is no way to attract new members.
Lets try the ideas that have been mentioned along with a survey and see what happens.
And if the design department is anything like most web design departments they all have 24 inch monitors with settings at 2048x1536 - so of course everything fits in one page.Quote:
Originally posted by JPNYC
Actually there is no single person who decides the design of the main site homepage. That belongs to the design dept. along with a number of other individuals. I have very little, if anything, to do with it.
Katmac - no offence was taken and I didn't post what I said to cause any rifts.
I must have missed the the troublemakers - I've been aware of people being banned reappearing etc and vaguely remember some lengthy 'discussions' around cliques and members siding with one another against other members, but bascially I looked past it all.
If I read a thread where I believed I could help, then I did.
I've had a couple of run-ins over the years I've been here, even one with BJ himself over my thoughts in this thread http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...hreadid=118833 but we quickly resolved them and moved on and I'm still here 2 and a half years later.
Boldly going where no one has gone so far that I have seen, but why is that so many ex VDr folk have headed to Cybertechhelp forum ?
I'm a registered member there and was amazed by the regularity in which I stumbled across a VDr member.
Maybe it's the sheer volume of new posts coming up there and if you don't have time to go to both forums you must decide which gets your attention.
With me it was VDr, but that was probably helped by the fact that I got off to a bad start at CTH http://cybertechhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37967 although we did sort it out in the end.
Notice my plugs for VDr though !!!!