Operation Delta 33

hi,
A laymans understanding of spikes and brownouts.
coils and motors, and electric appareil in general, where a current is flowing thru, well, the current want to KEEP flowing.

when the circuit breaker (switch) opens, this manifests itself by a spark
(where coils are involved, the spark can be very HIGH voltage)
ref; sparkplugs in mopeds etc, where the spark was formed by opening the contact points.

when that happens, the circuit the thing is on gets a spike

brownouts/powerdips with low voltage
I was told that in motors, extended use under too LOW voltage can cause overheating because the amp climbs.
when a heavy machine is powering up, the nearby circuitry may suffer a dip

in puters, the machine may go into suspend, and not be able to get out because the +5Vsb ain't up to it, or the flipflop did not flop
(its a thing I do not understand all too well. I am a mechanic, no electronics guy)

oh, believe it or not, but I did add a bit of my links to megabrain's article :-)

erm, I had a few more intel links
Once one learns to navigate intel's site, you find TONS of info.
the links to cpuid and the german CT tools are cool
CT magazine has great tools https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

since this is about helping people, I can just as well put some more handy links and tips in here.
Hmmm, I feel wrung dry https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Oh, I hear Jimmy Hendrixx is on the radio, perks me UP
---------------
VIDEOCARD DETECT
If you cannot identify your video card, you can run the following without opening the case to get an idea of the manufacturer and make:
1. From a DOS prompt, Win 3.x, Win9x, WinNT, or Win2K command prompt type DEBUG and press Enter.
2. A single dash will appear at which point type DC000:35 and then press Enter (DC000:50 may also work for newer cards).
3. You may need to type D at the second dash and press Enter for all of the information to appear.
You can type D more than once to see more info appear.
4. Q to exit

---------------------------------------------

MEMORY TESTERS
unlimitedhardware

arstechnica

memorykings

simmtester

chipmunk

dimm_id.zip

vml Download
-----------------

more intel links
Processor codes http://developer.intel.com/design/pc...sors/index.htm

Intel(R) Celeron(TM) Processor Specification Update: http://support.intel.com/design/cele...pdt/243748.htm

Pentium II Processor Specification Update: http://support.intel.com/design/pent...pdt/243337.htm

Pentium® II Processor Sspec Information http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sspec/p2p.htm

Pentium® III Processor Sspec Information http://support.intel.com/support/pro.../sspec/p3p.htm

Pentium(R) III Processor Specification Update, http://support.intel.com/design/pent...pdt/244453.htm

processor table http://support.intel.com/design/Pent...dbref/#product

CPU model number; The Intel PIII product codes are located here: http://support.intel.com/support/pro...iumiii/poc.htm
F=100 fsb, fc-pga
C=133 fsb, fc-pga
H=100 fsb, slot 1
U=133 fsb, slot 1


What if you are equipped with PC100 sdram modules.
if you upgrade the CPU to an EB, you would need other sticks of ram, or need be able to run sdram-clock at clock 133 minus 33 or at four/fifths (some boards can do this...)
you gotta check on this before you sell your old cpu and fork out for a new one.

------------------

how do i fit a heatsink onto the MOBO? I have some problem pressing down the metal lever and the worst thing is that while I am doing it, all the thermal paste stick onto the Pentium.. Is it alright?
You only need apply a THIN layer. http://support.intel.com/support/pro...eleron/s2s.htm

http://developer.intel.com/design/Qu...iii/FC-PGA.pdf

when I first needed do this sorta job, I came up with an idea for a cheap and handy tool.
Salvage an old blunt broadblade fine srewdriver, and put a file to it to make a nice rectangular indentation into the head. It won't easily slip off when you use it as a lever to get clips off the socket
I can recommend this to anyone. you need still be careful, but won't scratch the mobo as easily when the tip don't slip off as easily as it did before you made this indent in the tip.
-----------------

ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/

ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/oem/70258701.pdf

ftp://download.intel.nl/support/processors/manuals/fcpgaman1.pdf
http://www.intel.com/support/motherb...erboards.htm#3

http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/bios.htm

----------------
CPU COOLING
When load on CPU increases, and temperature climbs, and after a while sound/video starts to stutter.….
And hell, It may even reboot right into bios…..
Well, if any of that happens, I suggest you look at CPU cooling.
about heat problems.
Just remember that when I mention thermal interface, I mean the connecting surfaces of cooler and CPU. The coolerplate sometimes does not fully connect, which you can see when you hold it against light and look between cooler and cpu.
If you need to pull out the CPU assembly to look into this matter, be sure to remove POWERCORD. If a bunch of ribbon/cables are blocking air from the CPU fan, try moving them out of harms way. Adding a second system fan can do a lot of good. Used wisely, it creates a cross flow thru the case, and graphics card and CPU will benefit.
One way of deducing if the cooler is properly attached and gets proper thermal connection is quite simple. If you boot into bios and look at CPU temp, it should stay below 36 to 38C.
Then you boot into the OS and play a demanding game for a while, or do some heavy number cruching, Kill the app, and immediately shut off/reboot into bios where you again check CPU temp.
If you see temps of over 55C, and not dropping rapidly to below 40C, you may have to look at the thermal interface.
apply a thin film of thermal compound, and when you put the coolerplate back on you instantly feel if the connect is good as it kinda sticks. If not, you may have some wrong type of hardware installed in the assembly (been known to happen) preventing the surfaces to fully connect.
As an aside, I am kinda annoyed when I see OEM Flipchips come with stickers on the chip. for example, one paper sticker (covering half o/t chip and applied over the smaller sticker) and one small white plasticky sticker with SN (Bang in centre of chip, covering about one third). The smaller one says warranty void if removed, but they'd sure interfere with cooling since the chip and coolerplate surfaces would not completely connect. When I installed them OEMs, I peeled them clean and put them stickers where they do no harm. My vendor agrees that their placement is quite stupid, and agreed to my moving them. (thus I keep warranty)
It's quite another story on INTEL Boxed solutions, because the tape seen on the cooler is a thermal pad. (the intel boxed assemblies' warranty is MUCH better)
Also, avoid slotket solutions with OEM chips....
http://support.intel.com/support/pro...ii/thermal.htm

ftp://download.intel.nl/support/processors/manuals/fcpgaman1.pdf

ftp://download.intel.nl/design/pentiumiii/applnots/24508701.pdf

http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/bios.htm

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/...reffam.htm#III

archive bioses ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/

motherboard list http://www.intel.com/support/motherb...erboards.htm#3


about multiprocessor platforms
one word of advice, get the same stepping CPU
or CPU with compatible stepping (same is best) I am saying this because same speed CPU do not nessecarily have same stepping. ask advice at intel or DL this specification table

ftp://download.intel.com/design/PentiumIII/specupdt/24445322.pdf

you ought to be able to find these spec tables for Xeon too
http://developer.intel.com/design/pe...xeon/prodbref/

XEON specs at
ftp://download.intel.com/design/PentiumIII/xeon/specupdt/24446021.pdf


------------------
We can only learn when you tell us what worked. So Please bookmark your topic, and let us know?
You'll help someone with a similar problem when you do.

Kind regards, Jaak

Jaak, as always in depth info. I always save your posts to a JTDoom directory so I can go back and digest what you have written. The question was something about causes of a surge in a telephone line and this post was an example of a good surge. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

For those of you that might want to save a post, hightlight it, right click on your mouse and in the dialog box that comes up click on copy. Then open MSWord, right click on mouse and in the dialog box click on paste. Then save and put in whatever file in My Documents. You can build a good library of info that way and as Nick Grana says - Back It Up, Back It Up.

Still need more info regarding input surges on phone lines. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/



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Modem and Phone Line Protection

Network, Data and Signal Line Protection

As we see from what has been covered, this is a complex subject, and to protect our equipment, we will need to spend $40 or more to do it properly.

Here is some more on surge protection.If the responce time of you suppressor in 5 nanoseconds or more [posted either on box or website] it is to slow to be effective. Replace it with one that a responce time of 1 nanosecond or less.
The amount of electricity that gets through [let through factor ] should be 330 volts or less. Look for a rating of a least 300joules [higher is better yet].
Cost is about $40. That is the downturn of those good ratings. Just so you know
So if your suppressor cost you less than $20, it probably will not shield you from power glitches.
A UPS protects you from from surges and WITH its built-in battery , from dips in power.

EDIT: Need to add that when you are shopping that you can get suppressors and UPS that have the net and phone line protection built in.

I have been unable to find anything, or seen anything , that can protect you from a close/direct lightning strike. Sad to say.

------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]

[This message has been edited by Train (edited 05-27-2001).]

Computer crashed and just got it back up. Give me a chance to catch on what's been going on. I see there is quite a bit of info to digest on the subject of surge protection. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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Hi, guys! Hope you are having a wonderful weekend. You ask why more people are not chiming in. I can tell you. I'm sure you are all very nice, intelligent people, but I (and I imagine a LOT of others) have no idea what the heck you are talking about. Reading this Operation Delta thing is like reading a CIA memo that's been 80% blacked out. It's like overhearing a couple of back-fence neighbors talk about another conversation they previously had already. They're talking about a wedding but never mention who what where or why because they already know the particulars. Anybody esle listening just can't follow. And all those links to OD1, OD2, OD3, etc. are the same. Sorry, but that is my opinion. Hope everything works out for you. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Hi billmanhart, This is what we are dealing with at the moment.

Still trying to get the time to work on indexing the Delta threads. Slow going at the moment but it is needed so a person can find what they need more quickly.

We will start our "Weekly Subjects" with surge protection (how you can protect your computer from outside disruptions). And what better way to start than with a question.

What is an electrical spike and how can it affect my computer?

Thanks for your comments. We are trying different things to see what works the best as we go along. If you reread the last part of page 2 and this page you will find a lot of info on surge protection that a lot of people have not seen which in turn allows the installing of safety measures. Hope this helps. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/



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Train made some good points in protecting the system from spikes. (We're talking about low to medium spikes here...) Look for a computer grade power strip--the higher joule rating the better (usually advertised right on the box). (Of course, this is not to be confused with "royal" or "family" joules--which also should be protected at all costs).
A good setup is a Universal Power Supply (UPS) plugged into a good power strip; the strip plugged into the outlet. An additional power strip can be plugged into the primary strip or UPS for running any other power requirements such as speakers, etc.). The UPS can protect against brownouts, blackouts and mild spikes so you don't lose any data--gives you a few minutes to save and shut down.
However, as Train said, there's nothing out there that will protect against a lightning strike. Ever see a tree or a power transformer that's been hit? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ The best protection there is to keep a watch on the weather. When the big booms from sky are starting--unplug everything and wait it out. And make real sure the modem is unplugged. Some people forget about the modem line and it fries.

GG1,

First, a question. These threads aren't going to continue to be called OD are they? If so, I think that's a bad idea. Hoepfully they will have a more desciptive title, related to the topic (sub-topic) being dealt with.

Billmanhart makes a good point. These posts have to be geared to the novice, and easy to follow. Son-of-OD is not going to be something that attracts the heavy weight techie (nor did I get the impression it was suppose to). The audience is largely beginners, whether the contributors all are or not. I think this needs to be kept in mind in the discussions, information put forth, terms and jargon used. People should be given a "basis" of information. Too much info can be more than people want, more than they need, more than they can handle. If they get overloaded then they will tune out.

So is indeed the first topic power protection? That may be as good as any (as long as we don't try to turn people in to instant EEs). And since it's a short week...



------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.

DrMDJ, Thanks for adding your comments. We are discussing surge protection this week as we attempt to improve what we have. You are right in that we should gear this to beginners with comments questions and answers geared to that level and can always go deeper if need be.

We can certainly have a new title fitting what we are doing.

Apparently, you have done some thinking on this and would you please expand on the direction you are going for the rest of us.

Please remember we are going to go in a new direction whose goal is to help any member in understanding hardware as it pertains to personal Computers.

With this in mind, could we have some more input from some of the rest of you. This should be a product of members for members and you that have greater experience please make your thoughts known to help in this effort.

And thanks to all of you that have made comments so far. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 05-28-2001).]

Hi
I think you will sometimes need a summary done, and trust me, it takes time and a fellow member who is at least familiar with the subject to do it
(so as to make a consistent summary) to do it

I'll be hanging around on and off, as I really need do a lot of DIY chores and even some MAJOR jobs at home.
but I'll hop over more often.
that I promise

hmm, I am NOT an expert.
I love to tinker, tho.
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

For a name change we might use "Weekly Subjects - Surge Protection" for example. Comments please?

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Goose,

That's a good way to go on titles. To be honest, I was here for two months before I even clicked on the "Operation Delta" threads. Just didn't know what they were about until I got real curious one day. With specific titles like that you should get more people posting. The Delta titles were a little intimidating...especially when they got into the high numbers. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

BTW, already been reading about the power surge stuff. I like this new idea for the tutorial threads. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

------------------
I want my Win98 Emachine back !!!

MAXXIMILIAN'S

"weekly subject" is good, since it indicates that here is some general information => customer into the shop.

------------------
Karl, Denmark
---------
"..and may The Force be with you too..."

GG1,

The example suggested name/title you gave is more along the lines I was thinking. A two part title is good. The first part being something that defines the overall thrust of the threads and remains throughout, the second part relating to the particular weeks topic.

Jaak brings up an excellent point. Will summarizations be called for, or will the text of a given thread be enough. I don't see how we can expect committments from people to do much work on these topics other than contribute. Like Jaak, we'll all be (or may want/need to be) in and out (since our time hear at VDR is voluntary). We need to structure this, define the bounds, such that it is almost self-maintaining. I don't think that should be too hard to do. If the titles all begin with "ABCD", then people will have a string they can use to search on for future reference. And if the content of the weekly threads is kept as much to business as possible, and we try to make sure things don't go off on tangents or in to detail that is too in depth, then ay given thread should be pretty readable.

Originally I thought the intent of these threads (in gross terms) would be a kind of start-to-finish discussion of the process that goes in to (or should) the building of a PC. But now it sounds like it may have broadened in to a more "all things hardware" discussion. And that may be fine. I thought kallikru's list of topics a few posts back was a pretty good beinning. But the more I think about it the more it occurs to me that all the input on this is happening in the little vacuum of this thread. It would be nice if the kind of person that might be using/benefitting from these threads maybe told us what to talk about, what the direction should be. I realize you've solicited "everyone's" input in the postings. But maybe another thread needs to be opened up that is titled and directed to get people's input (maybe not just here in the HW forum either). Just a thought...



------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.

Have to agree with the above. The "Weekly Topic/subject" line is a good idea. But even more so, keeping the postings simple. it's a challenge for any "instructor" to not assume the listeners know terminology. I don't have any numbers, but from what I've seen here on the forum, greater than 60% of the readers are 'end-users', not 'power users'. They want to learn, but it would be too easy to bowl them over with technical jargon. (We've all been there....). That's not a put-down and not meant to insult anybody. We just need to keep it simple and as straightforward as possible; such as a quick explanation of an acronym used or exactly WHAT is a "PTW878A Anti-Gravitational Riser Board". It would also be best if one person initiate the topic (i.e. greengoose1)--otherwise it could get out of control. Folks can e-mail him with suggestions (hoo boy--bet he'll have a list long enough to last 10 years... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/) If he should not be able to initiate it that week, he could email someone else to do so. (How do you like that GG1 for volunteering someone without asking first? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/)
Just my thoughts....I'll be butting in from time to time... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 05-29-2001).]

Bistro, Email on way at 1436hours CST. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Please acknowledge receipt due to the transmiision problems I've had in the past. Train is the alternate FWD.

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Have not received transmission as of 1620 EST...brrrzzzttt...I repeat...have not received transmission...zzzzrrrtttt...this will not be repeated...have not received transmission as of 1620 EST....out. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Bistro, Your address is the only one I have problems with. Any ideas? I think Train's goes thru to you. Maybe I should post this problem on the internet forum. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ LOL https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

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*...damn solar flares....*

OK, go thru Train....sheesh.

hey,this is more like a chatroom!

Sorry,nothing to say,just wanted to make it 100 posts!

Hi BigJohn2, At the moment we are in the process of changing our direction somewhat.
Quite a few people have been giving there inputs after reading this thread. What you just saw was a result of not being able to get thru on an email on arelated subject. By the way welcome to VirDr. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Pleas add any thoughts you may have.

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Mail time.

Looking good as to the ideas I have seen.


------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]

Train and Bistro, I have tried acessing cometmail.com home site thru two different computers here in TX and get cache flow error.

Will changeover to new format tonight and we'll see how it goes. I do not think "surge Protection was widely read. We are using it as a test bed. Will introduce what we are trying to do and copy and paste to new thread the surge info. Comments please?

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GG1

I am willing to bet that your serve[s] have security/censoring programs that kill anything with comet in the address or even in the body.
If you do not get mail that I just sent that is what is happening in the body also.
Now who gets the accelerated BOOT. Must be in Tx.

------------------
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Operation Delta now closes. Jump over to Operation Delta to Weekly Subject as we are changing.

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BUMP

have been looking at a puter which got "lightly zapped" during a typical summer electric storm.

looks like he got it thru his modem

this one took us by surprise...
I was up and running tasks when that huge clap happened.. and nearly jumped out of my chair as it came unexpected.
btw, happened same moment, 25 miles away.
whataBLAST that was.

I saw nothing happening
after reading this thread, I had replaced my earlier surge protect for a belkin surgemaster with modem and coax protect,

and now, now the owner of that dead PC wants one......
(he too had one of those $4 thingies...)

inflicted damage was about US$ 645 ......

so I thought to bring this thread up

BUMP


------------------
Please remember, it's FREE advice! Let the world know what worked so we can learn.
Kind regards, Jaak

FYI - My power company offers a household surge protector for a monthly fee of about five dollars. The guarantee covers all electric/electronic devices in the house. You might check with your power company for a similar arrangement.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jtdoom:
hi,
A laymans understanding of spikes and brownouts.
coils and motors, and electric appareil in general, where a current is flowing thru, well, the current want to KEEP flowing.

when the circuit breaker (switch) opens, this manifests itself by a spark
(where coils are involved, the spark can be very HIGH voltage)
ref; sparkplugs in mopeds etc, where the spark was formed by opening the contact points.

when that happens, the circuit the thing is on gets a spike

brownouts/powerdips with low voltage
I was told that in motors, extended use under too LOW voltage can cause overheating because the amp climbs.
when a heavy machine is powering up, the nearby circuitry may suffer a dip

in puters, the machine may go into suspend, and not be able to get out because the +5Vsb ain't up to it, or the flipflop did not flop
(its a thing I do not understand all too well. I am a mechanic, no electronics guy)

oh, believe it or not, but I did add a bit of my links to megabrain's article :-)

erm, I had a few more intel links
Once one learns to navigate intel's site, you find TONS of info.
the links to cpuid and the german CT tools are cool
CT magazine has great tools https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

since this is about helping people, I can just as well put some more handy links and tips in here.
Hmmm, I feel wrung dry https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Oh, I hear Jimmy Hendrixx is on the radio, perks me UP
---------------
VIDEOCARD DETECT
If you cannot identify your video card, you can run the following without opening the case to get an idea of the manufacturer and make:
1. From a DOS prompt, Win 3.x, Win9x, WinNT, or Win2K command prompt type DEBUG and press Enter.
2. A single dash will appear at which point type DC000:35 and then press Enter (DC000:50 may also work for newer cards).
3. You may need to type D at the second dash and press Enter for all of the information to appear.
You can type D more than once to see more info appear.
4. Q to exit

---

------------------
Mike

A good setup is a Universal Power Supply (UPS) plugged into a good power strip; the strip plugged into the outlet. An additional power strip can be plugged into the primary strip or UPS for running any other power requirements such as speakers, etc.). The UPS can protect against brownouts, blackouts and mild spikes so you don't lose any data--gives you a few minutes to save and shut down.


I use an un-interuptable power supply (UPS), is this different in some way to your universal power supply or are we talking about the same thing with different names?
My UPS has DEFINITELY saved my two computers. It was the best investment on my system.
I live next door to a small power station and in a lightening prone area and so the physical dissconnect is my primary defense against lightening strikes.

Does stacking surge protectors actually work?
Is there a disadvantage? It seems too easy.

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I have yet to meet the person who's life has been enriched by alcohol