...and you can still switch drives without it...
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...and you can still switch drives without it...
Hi oldhermit - yes you certainly can because the boot.ini resides with the OSs of each drive. Just makes it physically easier. No goin' into the case. Safer too. :)
I hate to digress too much, but this is the guy we need to invite to this forum:
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Richard's Multiboot Menagerie
Can a PC run more than 30 operating systems? It sure can. Here's how.
By Richard Robbins
We've all heard of dual-boot systems or even triple- and quadruple-boot systems with versions of Linux, Unix, and Windows. But exactly how many operating systems can you fit in one computer? I decided to find out. On today's show I'll demonstrate how it's done.
This project started with a simple dual boot between Windows 98 and 2000. Then I added some Linux distributions and BeOS. Somewhere along the line, adding operating systems became an obsession. I wanted to see exactly how many I could stuff in one box. It also became a project to prove people wrong. Many people told me that what I achieved could not be done.
How many operating systems?
There are many points of view on exactly what an operating system is. I have concluded that I have approximately 39 separate, fully functional operating systems on my machine (as well as two that are sick at the moment). If you count my 18 DOS window managers, I have a total of 57 operating systems on my PC.
How could anyone have the time to use them all? I mainly use Windows 98 SE and Windows XP, but I do hop around to the others for the fun of it. The nice thing is the versatility. If one acts up, you spank its bottom and boot another OS.
Having many operating systems on one machine does not inhibit the normal functionality of the machine. I can do anything on my machine that I could do before I added these systems, and more.
Here's a list of the operating systems on my PC.
Before you start
Research is the key. Do the research before you start. Plan everything. Decide which systems you want installed and why.
Don't be afraid to start over completely. I had to start over on a number of occasions. It has taken me about a year to do all of this.
Get a bunch of hard drives for your system. I have six. You might need to get a PCI IDE card to expand your IDE ports.
Partition wisely. Map out your partition plans and go over their advantages and disadvantages.
Always, always back up your precious data.
And have a guitar handy. I've had quite a bit of practice while waiting for installers to finish.
The Boot Loader
One challenge was figuring out which boot loader to use and how to use it. In a multiboot setup, a boot loader is essential. It's impossible to work without one. A boot loader is the program that resides in the master boot record of the hard drive and tells the BIOS which partition to boot to.
I finally decided to use Extended Operating System Loader (XOSL). It includes support for partition hiding, boot keys, and drive swapping, and it comes in a neat 1024x768 pixel resolution (32-bit color) with mouse support.
Here's why I like XOSL as a boot loader:
· XOSL can hide partitions. When you have multiple versions of Windows on one PC, you have to hide them from each other or they won't function.
· XOSL can boot Windows off a logical drive. More on this later.
· XOSL has boot keys. Boot keys are an essential shortcut if you want to avoid typing something, navigating through a menu, and so on. For example, if I had an NT Loader with Windows 2000 and 98, I wouldn't want to go through both menus just to get to 98. In XOSL I specify the boot keys on my keyboard using the down arrow and Enter keys. This eliminates the second menu, making the process seamless. XOSL does this by placing the keys in the keyboard buffer until they can be implemented.
· XOSL looks great and is easy to install. It runs on standard VESA drivers, which let it access higher screen resolutions and depths.
Here are XOSL's flaws:
· XOSL has a 24 boot-item limit and a 56 partition limit, forcing me to install more than one dedicated installation.
· XOSL is also unable to boot directly to Linux. Therefore, when you install Linux you must install LILO to the boot sector of your Linux partition, not to the master boot record. Remove the timeout and point XOSL to that partition and it will "chainload" just fine.
Since XOSL has a limit of 24 boot items, I had to figure out how to install multiple instances of XOSL. I created five separate boot menus and grouped them accordingly:
· Main
· Unix
· Linux
· Windows
· DOS window managers
This made the menu system more organized. I can boot back and forth from any menu to any other menu, as well as boot CD-ROMs and floppies.
Other programs you'll need
· PartitionMagic is a must-have utility for partitioning.
· BootPart is a program to add partitions to the NT Loader.
· Linux OSes has tons of ISO Linux distributions.
Operating System Partitions
Another challenge was to get the OSes to cooperate with each other. It's like putting a pit bull, a cat, a parakeet, a Komodo dragon, an antelope, a wolverine, a rattlesnake, and a duck-billed platypus all in a room and saying, "Now please get along, children." The best way to keep control is to give each animal its own compartment. With this in mind, the challenge was to give each OS its own compartment on the hard drive.
To do this, you have to figure out each OS's requirements, how the OS works, and how to implement the requirements. For instance, a lot of systems (such as Windows 95, 98, and Me) won't boot if they are installed past the 1,024th hard-drive cylinder, and some systems require a primary partition, a swap partition, or both.
Plan out how much space you want for each system, where you want them, and what file systems they use. You must find out which operating systems need primary partitions rather than logical drives and which systems cannot run past the 1,024th hard-drive cylinder. This cylinder runs at about 8GB and prevents many systems, including Windows, from booting past it.
Rule of thumb: Don't install Windows past the 1,024th cylinder unless it's XP or 2000 being booted from the NT Loader. Linux, Windows, BeOS, and others can be run from a logical drive. BSDs, QNX, and DOS versions, however, must be installed to primary partitions.
How to set up your disk
There can be only four primary partitions on one hard drive, or three primary partitions and one extended partition. It's a BIOS restriction and there is only one (messy) way around it. I don't recommend it, but if you want further info, go to The Real Multiboot.
I suggest sticking to the four primary partitions. I usually put the pickiest operating systems, such as Windows, OS/2, and Minix, on the first disk. Most versions of Unix and Linux will happily install anywhere else. It's also a good idea to set up two partitions as swap partitions, one for Linux and one for Windows. It saves space and is more organized.
Windows on a logical partition
You can install Windows 95, 98, and Me on a logical partition, but not directly. The XOSL FAQ has more information.
1. Install Windows to a primary partition.
2. Copy everything from that partition to the logical drive of choice. You'll have to maneuver around win386.swp or you'll get an error.
3. After everything is copied, install XOSL.
4. Hide the primary partition and boot from your Windows floppy. Make sure the C drive is the logical drive you want your Windows installation on.
5. From the command prompt type "sys c:" and then hit Enter. This writes the Windows boot sector to that logical drive.
Multiboot Resources
If you're compelled to go off the deep end as I did, there are many resources on the Internet that can help you. Don't forget to visit the various computer newsgroups.
OS Links
· The OS Files: Free OSes
· Freebyte's Guide to Free and Other Operating Systems
· OS on the Net: The List
· OSNews.com
· osOpinion.com
Many multiboot how-tos are available from a search at Google. Search for "Multi-Boot" or "Multiple operating systems."
List of Operating Systems
I have separated the names of the operating systems in their boot menus as they appear on my machine.
Main menu
· Aos|Oberon 2.3.6
· DrDOS 7.2
· FreeDos 7
· MS DOS 5.0
· MS DOS 7
· OS/2
· QubeOS
· SkyOS
Linux menu
It's entirely possible to install almost every version of Linux on one machine. New versions of LILO eliminate the 1,024th cylinder boundary, enabling you to use up to 160GB for Linux. However, I decided to stop at around 10 versions because any more seemed redundant.
· Conectiva
· Debian
· Immunix
· JBLinux
· Libranet
· Mandrake
· RedHat
· Slackware
· Storm
· Vector
Unix menu
· AtheOS 0.3.7
· BeOS 5 Personal Edition
· BeOS 5.0.3 Developer Edition
· FreeBSD 4.4
· Minix 2.2
· NetBSD 1.5
· OpenBSD 2.9
· QNX RTP 6.0 (hosted)
· QNX RTP 6.1 (dedicated)
· QNX Neutrino OS 6.2
· SyllableOS 0.4.0
Windows menu
· Windows 1.01
· Windows 1.03
· Windows 2.03
· Windows 2.10
· Windows 3.1
· Windows 95
· Windows 98 First Edition
· Windows 98 Second Edition
· Windows 98 SE Lite (not counted as separate)
· Windows Me
· Windows 2000
· Windows XP
DOS window managers
I have 18 DOS window managers. Here's a good site to learn more about them.
Originally posted September 12, 2002
MPTech
What factors did he have to take into consideration to be able to do that?
How many times did he have to start over?
What are some of the considerations they conveniently left out of the article?
A person's experience in computing is made evident in several ways. Don't I wish my days were so involved in statistics and formulas that the little accompishments of years ago can never disrupt anything that I ever do. It is also evident that experience can cause changes in our perspectives. We might forget about the steps we took to accomplish what we have, but we should not forget that there are many visiting here to whom much of computing is still a mystery. What seems normal to someone with years in the industry may still appear quite confusing to those just starting out. GG has, and started this thread with the right idea, and is addressing the idea of multi-booting in its simplest form, and this thread will likely become more advanced as it is allowed to continue.
You can also use a removalble drive rack to dual boot. After a failed attempt to install a Trios switch I'm looking into installing a removable drive rack to achieve my goal of dual OS's on separate drives.
my 2 cents:
I happen to agree with Greengoose:
Setting up 2 HDDs IS the simplest and easiest way to setup up a dual-boot system. It is NOT the most convenient. Consider it this way; IF you wanted to be able to boot to DOS, Win 3.1, Win95, Win98, WinNT, WinXP, AND Linux. What Greengoose is saying is that you install each OS on a separate HDD (7 drives). The simple/easy part is that you don't have to worry or be concerned about compatibility issues. You don’t have to consider BIOS or partitioning either. Yes it is redundant, you'll wear out your cable, and you have 6HDDs that are not being used, but it is simply a matter of loading an OS, nothing else. You never have to worry about what you do in one OS affecting the others, it physically cannot.
OK, with that said, I think next in the evolution is 2 OS’s on the same drive, with dual booting managed by one of the OS’s (no third party boot manager). If you feel there is another step between here, jump in. I can give my own personal, first-hand experience here.
I reformatted my HDD with 4 partitions. My plan is. C Drive is OS1 (Win98SE), D Drive is OS2 (WinXP), E Drive is Program Files or Applications, and F Drive is Data (BMPs, MP3s, Word docs, Excel spreadsheets, downloads, etc). I choose not to make any of them NTFS, because I like to be able to read them from DOS, if absolutely necessary.
From this point forward, I recommend small steps and lots of backups along the way.
After formatting, I loaded Win98SE to the C Drive (the oldest OS must be loaded FIRST, I read it, but someone else will have to explain, I don’t recall). Stabilize it: set your resolution, setup your Internet connection & Browser, load your drivers (get the most current ones), get any service packs (OS & browser updates), but don’t load any additional software, yet. Once it is clean, and minimal (no additional software), take a copy / drive image / ghost of the entire C Drive to another partition (preferably a separate HDD or CD). I recently began using Norton Ghost 2003 and it seems pretty simple. I haven’t restored yet, but will as a precaution soon. To complete the activity of this drive, I would now optimize the OS by running some of the Utilities discussed in the other DeltaX (AdAware, SpyBot, Reg Cleaner, Reg Scrub, Reg Seeker, HDValet, and Norton System Works as a final check). Now ghost it again to a new filename. (you have 2 copies, just in case)
OK, second OS, I’m trying to remember how I did it, but I think I rebooted into Win98, after it comes up insert the WinXP (home) CD. When the XP install starts up, it asks where you want to install it, tell it the D drive. The install goes pretty much as usual from here on. (anyone is welcome to correct me, it’s been over 6 months since I did this, but it was pretty easy for my first time!). Once the install completes and the system reboots, it will now pause during the bootup and ask which OS to boot: Win98 or WinXP. Boot into XP, again stabilize and update it (service packs, current drivers, etc) like before and ghost XP (the whole D Drive) (to a different filename. I call mine GhostXP_031022a and Ghost98_031022a, or…..b, to make them unique). Now optimize XP like before and ghost it again (Ghost98_031022b).
Now you have a dual boot, on a single drive. (If I can do it, anyone can!)
Here’s my question to the forum.
When I created my minimal/optimized version of Win98, I installed all of my 98-programs onto the C Drive / Program Files (not my dedicated E Drive). I’ve been told I can install, say WinAmp for Win98 onto the E Drive, then boot up WinXP and install WinAmp again for WinXP into the same folder on the E Drive. That way my C & D Drive are dedicated to the OS’s and DeFrags are much faster, drives are leaner, and backups are smaller & faster. I tried doing this, but ran into some problems (WinAmp didn’t seem to like it).
Comments & Criticism are welcome! :D
An excellent explanation MPTech :) The important point to remember is always install the OS's in the order of oldest to newest.
Now to your question; the vast majority of apps can be installed onto a shared partition, but you do get the occasional one that won't give you the choice or won't behave when you do it. When that happens there isn't much that can be done about it unfortunately.
Another thing that can be done to save some hard disk space is to share the swapfile/paging file. It's such a long time since I dual booted ME/2000 that I can't remember exactly how it is done, I'm sure someone else remembers though.
Here is a good MS Knowledgebase article on multibooting with WinXP, it would apply equally to Win2000:
http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;q306559
Hi All, What would be next and just before a dual boot on one hardrive would be using the Trios Switch and controller cards to accomplish tying in 7 HDDs for example. The Trios switch can handle three HDDs and their OSs and the procedure to use it is fairly easy. You shut down the computer as explained earlier and make your selection ont the Trios Switch. Position one, two, or three which corresponds to three hard drives with their own OS. This eliminates the issue or situation of having to change out an IDE cable. :)
Goose,
Gonna still play devil's advocate here.... ;)
Before worrying about the steps taken to acheive a (any) particular multi-boot setup, or the method taken to boot between the two or more OSes one has set up, what factors/considerations need to or should be taken in to consideration before one starts? What all are the things one has to worry/think about beforehand when setting up (planning for) multi-boot, and which might influence the way in which they do it (or need to)?
A limitation of OSes with a DOS boot-record (Windows 9x, ME, etc), is that they must boot from the first primary partition of your hard drive (normally your C: drive). Microsoft's NOSes [Network Operating Systems, Windows Advanced Server (NT 3.1), Windows NT 3.5/3.51, Windows NT 4.0, Windows 2000 and XP] are more flexible. Not being dependant on a DOS boot record, you can install them to whatever partition you'd like. They still keep their boot files on the first primary partition (again, likely C:, often referred to as the 'system partition' ), but will boot the actual NOS directory on another partition (i.e. e:\winnt, referred to as the 'boot partition').
Why?
When attempting to install Microsoft's consumer OS and a business OS on the same system, file system complications become the concerns of the day. You have 3 types of file systems to consider in this Microsoft-centric scenario. FAT16 is the old faithful. Unfortunately, it supports partitions only up to 2 gigs in size for the consumer OS line (4GB under business OSes). FAT32 is Microsoft's extension to the FAT file system, and it became available with an intermedial release of Windows 95. It supports up to 2 Terabyte partitions. It can be used by three of the versions of Windows 95, Windows 9x/ME, and Windows 2000. How can you tell which version of FAT you are using with your home OS? When in My Computer, right-click and choose properties to see the file system type. You can also safely assume that if your consumer OS partition is greater than 2GB in size, you've got FAT32.
A note about NTFS versions. NT 4.00 does use a slightly different version of NTFS than do Windows 2000 and XP.
DrMDJ, Your question is a tall order, but if I miss some of them, I hope someone else can cover me. :)
There is more than one way to install a multiboot system. Are we going to use one or a combination. Understanding hard drives is essential. Things like sectors, partitions, mbr, etc. Booting a computer needs to be understood (boot.ini differences in OSs?) An understanding of multibooting principles is requisite. A knowledge of third party apps is important. This is a very general overview. There is also two ways to multiboot - the Microsoft way and the others. This causes alot of conflicts and can cause problems. Need to know how to deal with it.
And once you get all this under your belt you are ready to make a plan. There is a certain sequence of events that have to be followed exactly or you crash.
I think what you are after as is Train is what does a person have to consider (all the factors that go into your multibooting plan) so the installation will go as smoothly as possible and conclude succesfully.
Any of us that have done any multibooting successfully know how to do it but why did we do it that way? Because someone else said to or " I did it this way for the following reasons."
And I tell you all one thing I have found out. I do not know anywhere near all the whys. I still don't know enough - BUT I am digging into the subject, learning, and "connecting more dots every day".
Good Morning All,
Here is a table of operating systems and parameters for thinking about how to start figuring how to proceed in planning to Multiboot. As you look at it questions will most likely pop into your minds. These question would fall under the heading of what you have to consider. Study it a bit and you might get a feeling of how much this entails.
TABLE 1: OS Support for File Systems and Accessibility Types
OS FAT16 FAT32 NTFS Ext2
DOS and Windows 3.1 R, W, B ---- R*, W*** ----
Win95 OSR1 R, W, B**** ---- R*, W*** R*
Win95 OSR2, 2.1, 2.5 R, W, B**** R, W, B R*, W*** R*
Win98 R, W, B R, W, B R*, W*** R*
NT 4.0 R, W, B R, W** R,W,B ----
Win2K R, W, B R, W, B R,W,B ----
Linux R, W R* R* R,W,B
R = Readable
W = Writeable
B = Bootable
*Not natively supported--requires third-party software
**Systems Internals FAT32 for NT 4.0 provides read capabilities for FAT32 volumes under NT 4.0, and Winternals FAT 32 for NT 4.0 adds write capabilities
***Systems Internals NTFSDOS Tools provides limited write capabilities, and Systems Internals ERD Commander provides full write capabilities
****Win9x has difficulty with NT-created FAT16 partitions larger than 2GB that use a 64KB cluster
XP is not listed in this older table and it can install a file system as well as the operating system.
Lots to consider and think about. And anyone can multiboot if they are willing to learn and try. :) :)
Oops the table did not come out right.
Hi All, As this thread has not generated much participation or apparent interest, I thank all of you that have participated and wish all of you the best. Be well. :)
Well, I was very much looking forward to this thread progressing, but was sitting back to wait while the "trios switch" boot option was explained. Hoping for step by step instructions.
Then perhaps the straight dual boot, using the two hard drives that you spoke of to begin with. Again....... with detailed instructions on how to achieve it.
And finally, perhaps using just one hard drive.
Instead, it veered off somehow....and none of it got explained.