Weekly Subject - 05 - Cases and Power Supplies

Opovet,

I got a Dremel and some duct tape. If I go ahead, I'll see what I can do. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Bistro,

Agreed, modding isn't necessary at this point in the discussion. Just thought I would mention it. I'm getting ready to send in some rebates for this new machine, when it occurred to me that I have to cut out the proof-of-purchase seals from the boxes that it came in. Naturally, I have already filled those boxes with other stuff. That's what made me think of it. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

BTW, don't be surprised if the Emachine becomes the fashion plate of the computer industry. People will come from miles around just gaze on it's neo-impressionist glory. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

------------------
I want my Win98 Emachine back !!!

MAXXIMILIAN'S

Yeah...the same people who will gleefully drive 175 miles out of their way just to see the "World's Largest Hairball".....

All that glitters ain't gold...(or good). I've learned my lesson when it comes to chosing a case either for myself or when building for others. A+ certification skimmed the subject by pointing out obvious safety concerns and ventilation issues but not much else.
It only takes one wrong decision to make one wary next time. Before succumbing to asthetic appeal, I pop the case and insure that the P/S is a 300watt minimum with enough leads to satisfy future expansion such as P-4 requirements. The number of bays is always a focus point but again, it's what you don't see that counts. New add-on units such as audio control centers, gaming consoles and multi-boot selector boxes can gobble up available mounting space. My Romtec Trios unit is sweet but where to mount the additional 2 HDD'S???
The case manufacturer's design INSIDE, providing for mounting flanges OTHER than in the main drive bays, is paramount for me.
I just completed a P-III setup for my wife using a "Super Power, Plastic" mid-tower case and while nice to look at, allows little internal flexibility. Also, the transparent plastic flip-up cover would annoy the crap outta me, making access to the internal ZIP drive an, "up-and-down" nightmare, LOL...Oh well, I gotta live with this "customer" so allowaces had to be made,
:-)
Don

"Saying would be knowing. Not knowing, cannot say"

A feature on that InWin S500 that was nice was the drop-down hard drive cage (2 hard drives)--easy in and out and did not use up ANY of the 5.25" or the two 3.5" bays. Still room under the hd cage to put a 120mm intake fan.

Very true.

I picked up a case just like that and I didn't know until I try to put in my mobo. Gosh, I had to take out the power supply before I have any rooms to work with it.
Why they design case like that?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bistro:
Just a note concerning that InWin S500 case pictured above. If that's one you would consider, don't confuse it with the A500. The A500 was designed with the power supply laying on it's side. The CPU ends up being "underneath" the ps.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bistro:
WG34: Any reason why you need so many PCI slots on there? While 8 slot cases can be found, most I've seen around have 7. If you plan on filling up that mobo with cards, go for the roomiest case you can find--you'll need a fair amount of air space in there for working/cooling.

---

AGP=Vid card
PCI1 =Future"second nic"(future home network)
PCI2 =NIC(cable internet)
PCI3 =MODEM(for faxing)
PCI4 =Soundcard
PCI5 = Raid card ( future upgrade)
PCI6 =Future Upgrade ??
ISA = SCSI card for Umax scanner

Just thought I'd get some info from those who have experience with cases as to which size case is going to have 8 Slots in it ?

Hmmmm....gonna have to look a little harder to find one with 8 expansion slots (7 is the max "standard")--perhaps the same place you got that there mobo...might find a full tower with 8.

defung: Don't ask me....rather stupid design IMHO. I think the idea was to use it with power supplies that have an intake fan on the bottom--aimed less than 2 inches from the CPU to help draw warmed air off it. Grand idea that should have been killed at the drawing board.



[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-14-2001).]

defung
Probably a hold over from at least the 486 days and changing things means spending money and that means less profit. So, guess what. They did not change them for a long time as heat was not much problem.

Bistro , I worked on a A500 a week or two ago and the ps is in the same location as ours. But, left blood all over that thing. A razor blade it was for sure. And I was glad I did not have to work on the harddrives, as those screws/bolts are hard to get to. The cdrw was bad enough.

------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]

I ran into one of those large cases once myself, where the PS was placed directly in front of the CPU - in a hightower case https://discussions.virtualdr.com/!!.

I had to dismount the PS every time I wanted to try another CPU, cooler ect. This quickly got pretty boring, so when I decided to change the PS to a bigger one (230 W -> 350 W) I decided to try out some of my new power tools at the same time. I cut a new hole at the rear top part and moved the PS up there. The empty hole was covered with some heavy cardboard (glued) and a holes were cut in the cardboard to fit in an 80 mm exhaust fan instead.

Since this was my first job of this kind the result was a bit crude, but it worked nicely. I now had working space and the crude workings was tucked away at the rear. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

------------------
Karl, Denmark
---------
"..and may The Force be with you too..."

[This message has been edited by kallikru (edited 06-14-2001).]

All right, all right. I see what's going on here GG1. The plan is obviously "I'll start a new thread and before DrMDJ finds it we will be done and ready to move on". I'm crushed! Well ya can't fool me...

Man, ya can't turn your back for a second. There definately is a time warp around here. Weeks turn in to days.

I'm not going to talk about desktop type cases, only tower style. This is generally what the builder will be using. I will also stick to talking about ATX cases, as this too is the type builders will be using. This is the form factor (style) the motherboard manufactures have chosen to favor, and current boards are being built around. Other styles and variants have become things of the past. The one exception to this is the POC style used in Emachines, like Maxx has. However the prudent builder would be wise to stay away from this style as it certainly lives up to it's name: Piece-of-Crap. Fortunately, I don't think you can buy these standalone. You'd have to buy a whole Emachine and strip it out. Sorry Maxx. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Anyway...

As Bistro said, there are a lot of alternatives, good alternatives, available. On the most basic level though, the case is nothing more than an enclosure. It isn't like, say, a motherboard where there are lots of pieces/parts/aspects that directly effect operation, stability and longevity. As such a number of the things any given one is or isn't, has or doesn't have, aren't really important from a strictly operational/functional standpoint. All cases today meet the most basic requirements. Namely, that they a) conform to the specifications of their form factor (eg. ATX) and will accommodate all motherboards of a certain type/size, and b) provide the necessary electro-magnetic shielding of the internal components. Coincidental with this, they will all also contain properly located card slot openings in the rear, as well as appropriately sized drive bay openings in the front, and a suitably wired on/off switch. So if one sees a case advertised as an ATX case they can be assured of at least certain things. This is not to say that a case is a case though.

When it comes to pure functionality/operation, things like color, the composition (metal, aluminum…), the particular "cut" or "styling" of the case, whether the edges (inside or out) are rounded or not don't matter. The selections one makes in regard to these things are strictly a matter of personal choice. However, like Bistro, I personally think cases (like Inwin, as one example) where the metal edges are rounded over nicely are worth getting (almost can't cut yourself if you try). If you spend a lot of time fiddling inside the case your hands will thank you. And the aluminum cases can have certain merits too. They are lighter (if you move your case around a lot...) and have certain small advantages in relation to cooling. I wouldn't say these are reasons to recommend an aluminum case. I'm just pointing out where the difference has "some" meaning (unlike, say, color which means absolutely nothing).

There are other non-mandatory things/features a case can have that one might want to look at. Again, not things that will effect operation at all, just that can be nice to have. In terms of things that can make working on your PC easier... Slide out motherboard trays, separately removable side (maybe even top) case panels, and slide out drive bay cages (where the drives are installed) can be of value. Beyond these, removable/swappable i/o plates can be a benefit in terms of increasing ones flexibility for future motherboards they may want to install (more on i/o plates later). And finally, having two ide device activity LEDs (and wiring) can be nice.

As for the more critical stuff... When looking at cases (as others have said) definitely look at the power supply. As Bistro said, some case come, or can be had, without them. And that's fine. It simply means you have to add one separately. Most cases today come with power supplies. But whether purchasing separately or as part of the case get a good quality one. One with adequate power for your needs (current and future, and which you should have determined in your planning). To be safest it is best to look for one that is specifically approved by the manufacturer of the cpu/motherboard you plan to use. These manufacturers will generally have a list of recommended supplies. It is acceptable to go with a PS not specifically recommend, if the one you choose has the specifications of those that are approved.

Usually the brand of supply used in a case will be stated in the write-up/specifications. If its not I would contact the vendor or seller and find out what brand is in it. It should be noted that in some instances (re)sellers of cases will swap in a different supply from the one that came in the case (and sell the case for less than a competitor). In other instances they will substitute a (say) 250 watt supply for a 300. Find out what's in the case you're getting. Also, when looking at the specific brand supply, be aware that a number of the quality supply makers sell their supplies (same supply, same specs) under a few different names. So it may well be that the supply in a case you are looking at is in fact made by so-and-so. With a little research you can usually find out who really makes what. By the same token, don't buy/use no-name, crappy brand supplies. It is simply not worth it. A quality supply is not expensive (relatively or in absolute terms). And power is the life-blood of the system.

In terms of power output... Given today's PCs and the things in them, a 250 watt will probably be the minimum a person can get by with. For most people 300 watts will likely be needed. Personally, I (like others here have) would recommend at least a 300 watt supply. It seems to most often meet current needs of people, while allowing room for growth (adding components). And besides, the cost difference is small. However, this is a guideline. Each person should assess their own requirements. Look at the power requirements (specs) of the various components you will be putting in your system and see what the totals are. And that leads me to a side point. When looking at the specs of supplies, don't just look at the number that says its, say, 300 watts. Look at some of the breakdowns. Look at the maximum vs. nominal values. Can a certain level be delivered on a sustained basis? And beyond simply the total output, what about the output capabilities in terms of specific voltages required by various components (3.3 volts, 5 volts)? All supplies are not equal. All 300 watt supplies are not equal. Now before everyone starts thinking they need to be an electrical engineer to pick a power supply, let me just say I am simply pointing out some the subtleties, some of the things that come in to play. The truth is that if you pick a quality brand power supply it will supply what is needed. Both in terms of total output and the individual voltages needed.

Oh, and let me throw out two more power supply related things. Not things that are critical/mandatory, but things to consider. One is the specific location of the supply. While there all located in the same relative place (top, rear), there can be subtle differences that can be an issue. Sometimes they are located where they can interfere with things like a particular heatsink/fan combo one chooses, or simply make installing the cpu annoyingly difficult. Another thing is that in some cases the power supply is oriented differently, turned on its side. This too can create issues. For one it can impact cooling. Supplies generally have openings on their bottom sides, in to which air is drawn. In their "usual" position, located flat, this opening sits right over the cpu and in conveniently located to draw the heated air away form the cpu. When the supply is flipped on its side… In addition, the supply flipped on its side can effect the ability to add an additional fan and the location (more on accommodating fans later). Personally, I don't like this orientation. But that's my opinion.

When picking a case there are also a few things that are important considerations, but vary based on the builder's particular needs. To begin with, you will need a case with the appropriate number of drive bays to accommodate the devices you'll have. Both for 3 1/2 and 5 1/4 devices. And it might be advisable (like with other things) to allow for expansion. Obviously full-tower cases will have more bays than mini-towers. But the number of bays will vary within a particular case type. Pick a case that meets your needs. And when considering bays, look at the number of both internal and external bays. External bays are needed for devices like floppy drives and cdroms, where you need to do things like insert/extract disks. They're also needed if you plan to put in something like one of the drive bay cooler (fan) setups. Internal bays are used for hard drives primarily. Oh, and by the way. When looking at the bays in a case take a look to see where the internal ones are located. It can impact cabling (length, access). And also, remember that the size of the case (full vs. mini tower) also has an impact on the cabling.

Next, you need to ensure that the number of card slot opens (in the back) matches the number of slots on your motherboard. If the board is gonna have six, then the case will have to as well. Then there is the matter of the i/o plate. The i/o plate is where the connectors for things like the keyboard, mouse, usb ports, parallel ports, serial ports, onboard sound, etc. on the motherboard protrude through the back of the case. There are basic similarities in the i/o plates on ATX cases. But there are also subtle differences/dis-similarities. Be sure that the case you buy has the proper/needed openings. And be aware that on some cases the i/o plate is fixed, unchangeable. Its cut in to the case backing. On others the plate is removable. You can replace it with another, available from the vendor. This will usually cost extra. In some instances a case will come with a couple different (replaceable) plates standard.

Whether the case one chooses is a mini, mid, or full tower is a matter of personal preference and need. On a base level I don't like the mini/micro cases. I just find them too cramped to work in. But beyond this, there can be issues with cooling, especially if you load them up with the right number and type components. Sure the volume of air to move out may be small, but circulation is generally poor and hot air often seems to just get trapped in them. And the possibility of adding additional fans is either very limited or non-existent. You can usually add a fan in the (lower) front if one is not there already. But beyond that... And in today's world, with the number of devices the average person seems to put/want in their system, it just doesn't seem like a mini tower, by default, has sufficient number of bays. For these reasons I would personally recommend people go for either a mid, or if need be, a full tower case. This is just my opinion though.

Even if one goes the mid or full tower route, all cases are not created equal in terms of their ability to accommodate additional fanage (credit to Bistro for this term). It seems most systems today require at least one fan in addition to the one in the power supply. As the cooling thread indicated, the usual and best placement for this fan is in the lower front of the case. Any (definitely a mid or full tower) case will accommodate the placement of a fan there. Whether a case comes with a fan there, or how many fans a case comes with for that matter, is not necessarily a big deal (IMHO). Fans are pretty cheap. What is important is whether a case can accommodate additional fans and where, should you want/need to add them. This can vary depending on whether the case is a mid or full tower, and it can also vary within a given size. A case may have the cutouts for added fans, but they may be in less than desirable locations (as per our cooling discussions). Some may have one cutout, while others have more than one. Some cases may have the size to accommodate more fans, even in the right place(s), but the cutouts may not be there. And do you really want to cut sheet metal if you don't have to? When deciding on a case, by all means look at the schematic/pictures for it (available from manufacture site).

I will throw out one other case cooling related thing before stopping (hooray they say). Look at the non-fan related openings, vents, slits or whatever ya might call them. These (as we know) have cooling related implications. There can be vents that are well place, and intended to (and do) contribute to case cooling. There are others that have slits and openings that do nothing but disturb/upset airflow, fan draw, etc. Other have, say an opening for the fan inlet in the front, but the opening is less than adequate. Like I said above, look at pictures and schematics when investigating cases.

There are lots of good cases out there. I don't know that a case has to be any specific brand/model to be good. It isn't like other components. They'll all last and continue to do their job, as long as they meet certain criteria and have certain features to begin with.

OK, I'm done. I'm sure I forgot something or failed to address something, but... Next...


------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.



[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 06-14-2001).]

Whoa! Big one! And I was about to post: "Cases are really neat; get a nice one". Sure glad I didn't...would've been embarrassing...

DrMDJ: Thus it is written, so shall it be done. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Seeeeee? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/I told ya goose! There's a snitch amongst us.

Well, plan B then. We'll move the next one to say... the Internet forum or maybe 3.1 ? Yeah! He'll never find us there!
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

[This message has been edited by Queen_of_Hearts (edited 06-14-2001).]

I know, I know. I'm bad. I promise Bistro. One of these days I will learn to say what I have to say, want to say, in a nice concise manner, like you and others here do.

PS (to all): Am I wrong or is participation (widespread) in these threads not what one would have thought it would be. Seems either a lot of people are sitting back reading, or its a bunch of us talking to ourselves.

------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.

DrMDJ
Sure on a roll https://discussions.virtualdr.com/


------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]

PSS. And in regard to the "big one" comment... That's very kind of you to say. Oh, you were talking about my post. Nevermind.

------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.