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Good point on the thermal paste. Edited my post above. Boxed CPUs will usually have a small tube included, or the store will throw one in--just depends on the vendor. Which brings up a point which may or not be pertinent at this time. CPU heat sinks will often come with a thermal pad stuck to them. This pad is supposed to accomplish the same thing as paste, but IMHO they don't do the job as well. If one is going to use paste, remove the pad first and clean that area of the heatsink with alcohol, then use the paste. Don't use paste with the thermal pad. For most chips, especially Coppermines, a dollop about the size of a BB is plenty.
Not to insult anyone, but WHATEVER you do, don't pick up thermal ADHESIVE or soldering grease/flux. A few years ago an acquaintance of mine used soldering flux (the label on the tube was kind of confusing--said "Thermal 'Something Or Other'"). Needless to say it really messed up the CPU. If thermal adhesive is used, then congratulations--you now have a permanent CPU/heatsink combo. Not fun.
Another tip: if you get a tube of thermal paste from an electronics shop, knead the tube a little before using. Then squeeze out a small amount onto a paper towel first. Sometimes the paste components will get separated--you may just get an oily substance come out at first--do NOT put that onto a CPU. Squeeze out enough onto the paper towel until actual paste appears, then apply.
Are we getting ahead of ourselves here, greengoose? If so, I apologize.
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-12-2001).]
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Just curious about one thing. When I went looking for a new case, they kept asking if it was AT or ATX and if it was a Standard ATX. Wouldn't you need to keep that in mind when getting he Case and MB?
One other thing. I got my Case for $49.99 with 250w ATX PS. Came with Brass MB mounting screws (Standoffs)... Not a bad deal, I dont think. The case was already put together. So nothing to mess with there. No sharp edges. Two Panels for access, instead the One that my old case had, where the whole top and side slid off together. 3-5.25 drive bays (External), 3-3.5 drive bays 2 external and 1 internal. Just my thoughts here........
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In rereading this thread a tremendous amount of information has been given in brief concise form that most anyone can understand.
There has been signs that this is helping people already on our Hardware Forum.
Snarkie had a nice thread he started on the VirDr Comments Forum that is related to what we are doing.
Ceaser said in the same thread a good place to start would be upgrading ram in your present computer. And if your comfortable with that continue on.
The list of hardware and tools Bistro wrote about is something to be saved for reference.
Thanks to all of you taking the time to help make this effort a sucess. I for one learn alot from what is written and always I realize how much there is to learn. Enough rambling.
Anyone want to try and reduce what we have so far to a numbered list of things to consider in building a computer. Or better yet I'll start one and everyone add to it. Then we combine everything. It will be a list a person can highlight and paste into a word document when we get done.
Considerations in Building
a Computer
1.Why do I want to build a computer?
2.What resources are available to me?
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Greengoose posted Train, Nice recap on your system. Any particular reason for those components over any others?
Several, I did not like the Intel prices for a starter. And wanted nothing to do with the Celeron's FSB speed. Personal opinion! So went AMD. Then of course the motherboard seemed the best for what I wanted and could find out about at numerous websites.
The tower, in my book, is the easiest I have ever worked with. Had provisions for extra fans, which I use.
The second monitor was for self defence, wife would have taken over jr. The difference between a 15 inch at 800X600 and a 19 inch at the same resolution. Easier for her to read. That is why. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Referencing Dodge's post above: Motherboards come in different "form factors"--sizes/types. There are others, but the basic forms are Mini(or Micro)AT, AT (or "standard" AT), Mini (or Micro)ATX, and ATX (or "standard" ATX). It's the ATX (standard) that you want in a motherboard; if you want the latest and greatest capabilities. Yes, you MUST match the motherboard to the case or vice-versa when shopping around. ATX mobo to ATX case. Otherwise, no go; won't fit.
Almost all systems now are in the ATX standard format.
Nice article describing form factors
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-12-2001).]
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Train, good breakdown on reasons. You gave the "why" you picked certain components. This is important for people just starting to know. "Why am I getting this component over that component" for example. You and Bistro did that for the Queen of Hearts and me in Opertation Delta shortly after we started.
The how, what, why, where, and when are important in anything we do to have understanding.
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It just dawned on me that there may be some folks just reading these weekly topic threads (I know you're out there...you're just being reallllll quiet.. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/) and may not be totally familiar with some terminology and/or acronyms used here. May I suggest Webopedia be put on your Favorites list. Plug in the acronym or word, and you will usually get a good definition. Or use Google--type the word, followed by the word "definition".
Other terms you may see (using the KISS principle):
CPU: Central Processing Unit. Use to describe the entire central system, but nowadays refers to the processor chip itself i.e. Pentium, Athlon, Celeron, etc.
mobo: short for motherboard.
Motherboard: long for "mobo". That big green or brown circuit board in there that everything's hooked into. It's the super highway that connects the components together and (hopefully) says to all "Let's be friends" instead of "Can't we all just get along??!??".
IDE: Integrated Drive Electronics. Refers to the hard drive (hd) or any drive with integrated electronics such as a CD-ROM. Old drives had to have a controller card on the motherboard; connected by an IDE ribbon cable. Then some brilliant soul developed the IDE hard drive that had the controller integrated onto the hard drive or other drive. It could now be connected to the mobo to a simple port (IDE port or connector). "EIDE" = Enhanced IDE--just some other improvements. Most folks use them interchangeably; same, same for the most part.
ATA: Advanced Technologies Attachment. Refers to the newer hard drives that have an increased maximum data transfer; 66 or 100 mbps (megabytes per second). They are capable of this rate; not always run at that speed. (Older IDE drives have a 33mbps capability). ATA drives also spin faster: 7200rpm (rounds per minute)--faster accessing. Older IDE hard drives usually run at 5400rpm or 5600rpm. ATA drives require an ATA cable to connect to the mobo and the mobo should support ATA in order to get the maximum performance out of the drive. Here's more confusion: ATA's are considered IDE/EIDE's (just better). You might see EIDE and/or IDE on an ATA/66 or 100 hard drive box.
Have to look at the specs--look for "ATA/66" or "ATA/100". Most, if not all, of the Western Digitals and Maxtors you see on the shelves now are ATA/66 or 100's for example. NOTE: There has been an evolution of ATA's; all with different notations--(the first ones were nothing but an improved IDE). But here, when we say "ATA", we're referring to the new ATA/66s or ATA/100s.
Hmmmm...what else? HA!
IMHO: In My Humble Opinion...
HD or hd: Hard drive. Or did you forget already? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Vid card: Video card, graphics card, graphics accelerator card--same, same. Processes the video.
Sound card: or "sound card" for short.
Processes the sound. Stop me if I'm getting TOO technical... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
BTW: By The Way...
ROFLMAO: Rolling On the Floor Laughing My A-- Off. You won't see this used when someone reports they just burned up their CPU...
Enough https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Would encourage anyone posting that when they use an acronym or high-falootin' term, to kindly spell it out for the benefit of our readers. I think it would help. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
high-falootin': short for "high-falooting". Heady, technical, unusual, not commonly used, etc.
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-13-2001).]
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Bistro, thanks for the Info on the ATX. I wasn't sure if it was needed before you buy all your stuff or not....
ALso, good Idea on the PC lingo.......
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Good Morning All, Rereading the posts to see if we left anything out, I got the feeling I was back in school again. There have been some really good comments and explanations concerning building a computer.
Have we left anything out on the subject of considering building a computer that anyone can think of?
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Hmmmm...covered:
What's it going to be used for?--helps determine how advanced we want the components to be. Do I just want a good solid family computer or something that rivals a mainframe?
How much do I want to spend?--helps determine how advanced we want the components to be. (ECHO...echo....echo....). For a complete new system, we have to be realistic. You are not going to be able to build a new computer for the price of an electronics hobby kit. But wait a minute..."What about those computer company's ads for a 'complete" system for such low prices? I actually might spend MORE building my own than what they cost!" Yes, you might. But look at the ads carefully--a lot of them have in fine print: Monitor not Included; or the monitor is a "fabulous" 13-incher (way too small). Be careful. Others simply just have cheap parts. While others have propietary cases and motherboards that you can't upgrade, or have to go through the company to upgrade (and pay through the nose to do so). Others offer great deals BUT only if you sign this three year contract for services (Internet, etc.), which you'll end up paying more money in the future. (Try getting out of the contract and see....). You have to weigh all the factors. Now don't get me wrong--there ARE some nice systems for decent prices out there if that's the way one wants to go. Just "Buyer Beware"--don't get sucked in by the spectacular ads.
With the money spent on building your own, you'll KNOW the quality of parts that are in there and will have exactly what you want for a mobo, hd, vid card, sound card, etc.--that's the big advantage. No compromises.
Am I willing to forego having a central tech support or overall warranty? Big question for some. I will tell you that most people I've encountered who leaped into the breach and built their own have no problem with that. After a build or two, they feel pretty confident they know enough to take care of their own system; along with all the info on the Net available to them.
Will I be able to cannibalize my current system in order to save money and/or wait for a better time to upgrade a certain part? Depends. You definitely want the new case and motherboard, CPU. Otherwise, why build? The new mobo may not take the old RAM (highly likely), so new RAM is a shoe-in.
Can get away with using the old hard drive, CD-ROM, floppy, etc. until you can upgrade those. While this is OK to do, it's really better in the long run to just save up for all new components and build from there IMHO.
But I don't know squat about electronics! And it's SCARY in there!" Many folks who took the plunge were right there with you. Plenty of tutorials on the Net and help right here on VDr. Most of it is just screwing a part in place or just plugging in another part. No soldering or testing circuits is necessary. That's not to say you don't have to be careful or methodical. It has to be done right. You need patience and most especially, motivation. If you are really balking at the project, perhaps then you would be better off just buying a ready-made system. Absolutely no sin in that---build-your-own is not for everybody. (We'll still like you here... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/). But we hope these threads will at least inspire some to consider delving into it--it's a lot of fun, great learning and a neat sense of satisfaction/pride after you are done.
Soap box is open now....anybody else? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-13-2001).]
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Man, I'm tellin' ya. Ya turn away for a minute and you're way behind around here. Oh well, looks like I have to play catch up again. Not to worry, I only have a few minutes so this will be contained to a few chapters instead of a whole book this time. In any case, everyone's free to take a nap while I ramble…
I know it has been before, and I know it's beating a dead horse, so I won't say too much on the subject. But I think it is doing a disservice to any (new) prospective builder to leave them with the impression that the process of building a pc won't require more than slapping a few parts together, or that things always go well. Mechanically, assembling a pc is not a big deal. It's something most/many can do. And sometimes you can just follow a "cookbook", plug things in, and away you go. But sometimes not. One does not have to look any further than this forum to see it is filled with (as only one example) "just built a system and it won't boot" type posts. Now sometimes, with some help from people here, things get straightened out. But sometimes they don't. The point is that things can often not go well. And when they don't it can require more (sometimes a lot more) than a superficial knowledge and understanding to get things going, get things going "correctly". "Someone" has to have this knowledge/understanding. And "ultimately" that someone is the builder. Say what you will, it must be understood that when you build a pc "you" are taking on the responsibility for supporting it. For getting it to work, for keeping it working. From day one on. Which leads me to the next point(s).
Places like VDR can be a great resource. But that's all it is. To think of it as, rely on it as, or purport it as anything more is a mistake. Sure there are can be knowledgeable and helpful people here. But we need to be honest. There is no guarantee that someone will be able to help, or that the right person will be available, etc. No one here has any obligation, commitment, or responsibility. It is neither smart, fair, or practical to look to VDR as a substitute for vendor support or a warranty. Ultimately it is, or will end up being you (the builder) that has the burden of support for your system. Even if people here get you through the initial build phase, what about next week, next year? So if one is going to build a system they must realize, accept and being willing to take on the responsibility that it is up to them to understand their system, the components they've bought and the way things work. Because when push comes to shove it will be "your" system and your problem(s). OK, I hear everyone saying "yea, yea, yea"... Enough said.
So what's the first and most important thing one should do to prepare for building? Their homework. Take the time and make the effort to gain an understanding. Not just information, an understanding. It will take time, but your building and post-building experience will be better for it, and so will the system you end up with. The idea is not to become an expert. That's not necessary, nor is it going to happen over night. But start to learn about the components and sub-components in a PC. What they are, what they do, how they interact. A proper understanding of these things will enable you to make intelligent choices in terms of the components you select and buy. It will enable you to ask the right questions (here for example), and understand the answers. It will help you build and support your system. You want to gain enough knowledge so you can gain a sufficient degree of independence, self-sufficiency. When it's all said and done you want to be in a position where "you" selected the components, "you" built the system, "you" understand your system. You will have done yourself a tremendous disservice if all you end up doing is assembling a bunch of components selected by other people (from, say, here), followed a step-by-step procedure laid out for you, done, set and configured a bunch of things according to someone else's specifications. What you will end up with is a clone of someone else's system, a system that may not really meet your needs, and a system that you may not understand and be able to support. Bad idea. Remember: this is supposed to be "your" custom system, and "you" have the ultimate responsibility to support it.
So, my first advice is that when you reach the point of actually starting to build, be in the position where all the questions aren't "what should I buy", "what do I need", "what do I do next"? Instead, be in the position where you can use resources (like VDR) to discuss alternatives, ask for opinions. Don't be a person that is asking, for instance, "what case should I buy?" You want to be in the position where you can discuss case abc vs. xyz, where you understand how it may be better or worse, why it may or may not fit your needs. Know enough to understand that when selecting a motherboard and case that it isn't simply matter that the case is an ATX style ("I didn't realize it mattered that my case only has 5 openings and the motherboard I bought has 7 slots"). Don't be a person who ends up with a xzy raid motherboard and has no clue as to what a raid is or what to do with it. Don't be the person with the post saying "I bought xyz motherboard and am having problems overclocking it", and whom must be told "that's a great MB for overclocking, only problem is the processor you bought can't be overclocked". I repeat what I said above, you don't have to be an expert, know everything. There will naturally be questions, things you don't know, have to find out about during the build process itself. But in my opinion until your obtain a certain level of knowledge and understanding you are not ready to build. To do so before this point will not result in the best system (for you), will add to the potential for problems and hassles, and will not give you a system you can support. It's in the you (the builder's) best interest, not mine.
OK, so you've done the knowledge homework part. Next I do (too) think it is important to sit down and access your needs and wants. To understand exactly what it is you do with your pc, and what you plan to do in the near term. And while you're at it, look a little further down the road. You may not be doing such-and-such today, but may be planning to at some point. So while you may not need to buy xyz today, you may need to ensure the expansion/upgrade can be accommidated later. Going to need some extra PCI slots down the road? Going to use an old hard drive to start with and maybe get an ata100 drive later? Then plan for it in your motherboard purchase now. By properly accessing your needs/wants you will ensure you end up with the things you need, and not end up with things you don't. Afterall (to state the obvious), two important goals in building your own are to obtain a system customized to your needs and to save money. If you only need a 800 mhz system why pay for a 1.3 gig? If the money's that unimportant then tell ya what: buy the 800 and send me the cash difference. Besides, in you plan and purchase properly you can always upgrade later. On the other hand, if you will be doing certain things with your system you may need that 1.3gig, so get it. I know this seems obvious but I can't tell you how many people grossly over and underestimate what they do and what they need to do with their pc. And another thing. Don't buy things just because they're the latest and greatest, because your friend has it, because someone here told you to buy it, or because everyone over at extremehardware seems to be talking about it. Buy it because you need or want it (and as I said above, you'll do yourself a world of good if you understand why you need it and what it is).
And as part of the planning process, don't forget the software (as others have mentioned). Not just the OS, but anything else you might use need. When you build there is no preloaded software. Sure, often you will get software with this card or that. Investigate what will come with the components you're getting. See if it's what you want or need. You may (and likely will) need or what more. Maybe you'll need different software (or updates) because you are going to put Win2k on this machine and you're prior machine was Win95. You'll get drivers with different components, but start looking for and acquiring updates. And don't forget bios updates. See if there are any, or if you might need on. Drivers and such come (or can be had) free. But that copy of Win2k, Office,... It can add up.
I really don't think the prospective buyer needs any special tools. Most people have the basic tools needed. As for things like cables, thermal paste, power splitters and adapters… I don't necessarily think these are things one needs to lay in a supply of before hand. Whether you need them and what one needs will become obvious (if you've done your homework) early in the process, or at least in plenty of time so as to not impede your building (most can be gotten easily and quickly).
Alright, everyone can wake up. I have to stop now. There's plenty more to be said/addressed, but for now this will have to do. To quote Arnold: I'll be back…
EDIT: OK, so I lied. I ended up saying a lot on things I said I wasn't going to. Oh well...
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[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 06-13-2001).]
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to shed a little lite on why i picked what i did i must refer you to a post that i submitted earlier : http://discussions.virtualdr.com/For...ML/003044.html
basically it states :
I want to move one of my computers next to my entertainment system and integrate it into my audio/video setup. I would like to record television shows and some of my audio cassettes on my computer as well as play my mp3s through my entertainment system ... has anyone done this and what possible pitfalls might i encounter ...
seeing that no one replied to this i decided to be the guinea pig myself
i needed a fast processor to accomidate the mpeg decoding that my tuner card needed as well as a fast output to a storage media
for this i chose a p4 1.4 and then a Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 60 for recording this video onto (ata/100 7200 rpms)
i needed a vid card that could: a) output to tv (svid); b) capture (from coax and from vcr's and vid camera); for this task i chose the ati-AIW raedon
i needed a sound card w/ both optical and rca ins and outs; for this i chose the Hercules Game Theater XP which has both optical dolby digital 5.1 and analog rca connectors
for sound i chose more space at the cost of performance al la the (2) W/D 40 gig 7200 ata/100 w/ a pci ata card
and then for the cherry i chose a wireless keyboard/mouse ... so i can gell on my arse and control the computer from the comfort of my lazy-boy
gutting my other machines for various parts dosent create a problem because when 'my baby' reconnects to the network all the parts will be reshared amongst the other machines anyhow
i went for a custom made box over a prebuilt for the flexibility of being able to choose the parts that fit my specific need - my a/v rig ... and thats the beauty behind it
i also feel that i saved alot of money by not purchasing redundant parts and redundant software
ill keep you posted on how she performs at the tasks that she will be assuming ... as of now im taking it slow
another point to mention ... i am soooooo glad that this baby dosent have to step up to the plate immediately so i can take my time ... whereas if this was my only machine i would have had to have it up and running immediately because of the chores that i do on a day to day basis ... its great to have back up machines for this purpose
outie 5.0
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ASUS P4t i850;PIV1.4GHz;2 RAMBUS 128/ECC/800;ATI-AIW Radeon;Game Theater XP;wireless key/mouse;IBM Deskstar 15GB ATA/100;MAXTOR 60GB ATA100;(2)WD 40GB ATA100; Espressa 12/8/40;PCI Nic;PCI ATA/100 card
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Sooooo...with all that said, we'll move on to our next exciting topic: "How To Make Lace Doilies for Fun and Profit". https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
In reference to DrMDJ's post above, I hope no one got the impression from my posts that all one has to do is "throw some parts together" and have a working system. If so, I apologize. That was not the intent. Some good points in his post. It's true one needs to do their homework before building. I believe that was where these weekly topics were heading--to provide links, tips, etc. in the coming weeks to help educate. (There are some sites and books that I intended to post when each particular subject was approached). And again, building your own system is not for everybody; but one has to assume that if folks are reading these threads on a regular basis, then they must have at least a cursory interest in building. As these threads develop a little more, I think it will become fairly obvious to the readers that they need to learn a little bit before diving in. And when someone here gives their opinion on what's the "best" this or that, take it for what it is--their opinion; not The Ten Commandments. Then take those opinions and look them up on the Net or other sources and check them out for yourself. Best way to learn.
Now...back to knitting those doilies...
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DrMDJ, A very responsible piece of writing and exactly what is needed to help a person make up his mind to build or not.
No where, to my knowledge, have I ever seen the balance to a subject presented as it has been by all of you that have posted here on the Weekly Subject. The effort has been tremendous and you can see it when you read these threads.
There should be little doubt in the readers mind what to be concerned with in contemplating building a computer.
And usually, a person is reading this on a computer they have bought and have already started learning. What they have to decide is whether to try their hand at building and there have cetainly been enough facts presented for a person to make an intelligent decision of this nature.
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Looking forward to the lace doillies segment, but one last question for you folks. What are your opinions about half-way measures regarding building versus buying? I'm referring to the "kits" that you can buy with all the parts like Tigerdirect. And also the on-line custom places like ABS, where you pick and choose your components and let them build it for you. Are these places a good bang for the buck?
Also, what sort of items am I going to need for the lace doillies? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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I want my Win98 Emachine back !!!
MAXXIMILIAN'S
[This message has been edited by maxximilian (edited 06-13-2001).]
