Operation Delta

Queen of Hearts, You have E-mail now. My mistake.

You asked just the right questions and jumped us ahead and thank you Bistro for the answers on the case topic. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ WOW https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

The kids are going to want to do the Napster deal, but there'll be the CD Writer for getting those off the HD. I think 30gigs is pleanty, too, (maybe even too much) but I'll look at the $ difference in those when we decide which one.

OK.....let me see if I have this ......
All the Brands of Computers (ready to wear) have either the AMD or the Intel, then the other componants are their own stuff or what they think you need to go with it. I get to pick which one, AMD or Intel, and what we use with it because we are starting from scratch.

I have read numerous times on the VDr Board about the AMD getting hot. Is that because of the case it is in or does it have a flaw ? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Rollin Rollin Rollin git them doggies goin. I have the AMDK-6 in my Presario with no problems regarding heat.

No "flaw"...it just runs hotter. Kinda like the old VW Bugs...ran better when hotter.
Perfectly normal for those chips--(but better if they have a larger fan to keep them cool). Nothing really to do with the case, unless it's a mini-tower and therefore more cramped inside (less air flow). We would recommend extra fans, etc. to those complaining about their AMD overheating. Still a good chip though.

Ok, so that won't worry me when deciding.

I never see any AMD commercials.
Are they as well known ? Been around long ?

Oh ! ..... the IBM, is it one of those two or completely different ?

I'm going to give you guys some recommended reading--some of these you may already have, so pardon the redundancy:

Probably one of the best:PC Mechanic
Others: THIS, THAT, and THE OTHER.
Good article on what to consider first:
Considerations.

Article on what-all's involved with building an Athlon system: HERE

Hope this helps a bit. Don't be intimidated..it's actually "easier" than it looks.

Queen of Hearts, Can you believe this? Reading, it had to be reading. I just knew this was getting to easy. Well, I guess I better get to it. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Seriously,Thanks Bistro, I'll check back in a couple of hours. We received a full course in cases today. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ This is better than I thought.

You're welcome. I got all this material from "Bistro's Official Computer Demi-god Certification Course"; specifically Chapter One: "How to Overclock Your Ego". https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Thanks alot bistro https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

I have been reading those links. At the PC Guide as he's explaining how to get started building, he said :

"This procedure concentrates on the assembly and setup of the PC itself. It does not deal with any of the important pre-assembly work, such as planning a system, specifying and purchasing components, etc. These will be covered in future sections of The PC Guide, with links placed here as appropriate."

Is this an old article. Has he done this yet ? I'd like to see it too if he has.

I did follow other links too. The one on basic PC was good. Stuff I should have already been paying attention to.

I'm still reading. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ ...So you have a little reprieve.

Yes, a couple of them are dated, but the basic info is still good. The one at PC Mechanic in my opinion is the one you should concentrate on---fairly recent, and he's a pretty straight-shooter. it will help you get the scope and clarify quite a few points.

(Gawd, I feel like my seventh-grade teacher giving out homework.... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/)

Thanks, Mosaic! I was beginning to feel a little lonely here! https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Good ideas and in full agreement. Just unplug the computer before sticking your hands in there, guys... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/...and make sure you touch the casing or have a static strap on you (peek, don't touch). I'll tell you how I "learned"...exactly what Mosaic mentioned. Just opened my old 166 up and looked at it, read some articles, did a little research/shopping, and asked a lot of questions (on an old chat forum that's no longer in existence...one of the members, Albert Einstein, passed away and we lost interest soon after...). Finally took the plunge and built a new one. (Went a little overboard though, and decided that the Legos weren't needed...). Been building them ever since. It's a challenge, as Mosaic said, but great fun and real learning. Once done, you're very proud of your handiwork. Keep plugging away at your "homework" and definitely check into what Mosaic suggests. You even got me thinking about some major upgrades....Dear Mom, Send money...

I'm back. I note that the inimitable Mosaic has weighed in with her usual eloquence and insight. How could you forget how you and others had me inside my Compaq case when I had my CD-ROM problems. As I dislike to recall, there was unplugging, replugging, and maybe general plugging of various sized interconnecting cables. The inside of the case was cleaned and part and serial numbers of components were recorded with due diligenge. Then somewhere along the line a CD-Rom was fixed. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Those are goodpoints you made. Now, if you were going to install an operating system, what would it be and how would you set it up so it would operate smoothly and troubleshoot easily. Queen of hearts and I will maybe start with 30gb and be able to expand to 60gb. This would give us plenty of room for goodies. I am starting to outline headings now and random list of subjects as they come up. Because we have had alot of input of raw data for this project.

Mosaic, you were right about us coming over here and what would happen. Look around and you will see it starting. Also, there is crossover here to Win98. You just can't get away from it but it can be improved I feel. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Later

Queen of Hearts, Good info if you go to Forest1 post on the Lian case in the infamous HP thread and click on the thread.
You know come to think of it Forest1, Mach2, Train haven't said much lately and I'd say they and some others I could mention contributed to us getting going on this. Do we need to call them to Hardware yet. Probably not, with all we are having to study. Sort of miss their ideas and comments.
Think a road map would help?

Points well taken Mosaic. And rest assured none of that are a part of this project will go unheeded. Both the Queen of Hearts and I agreed on that, I believe, that we could not and would not be successful without y'alls help. This project was and is the result of a forum of people working together helping each other. Both Queen of Hearts and I have in effect put ourselves in your hands because of our lack knowledge. Any one can read our posts on how, what and why we are doing this. We appreciate all that you are doing and have done and that applies to each and every individual that has been a part. Think of what each of us as individuals can gain. You, the teachers will learn more than we will, but we will be apt students. Look at Bistros and the Queen of Hearts posts on computer cases. How long would it take an individual on his own to gain the knowledge that was on this thread today? Mosaic, I to am not lecturing but trying to explain what this is about. It is my wish to be able to explain to others how you explain things to us. Each and everyone of us has both something to contribute and something to gain. I have said before that those of you who give so much to us who need are the cream of the crop in my book. Please excuse the length of this discourse. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Mosaic,
Yep I've seen the inside and put in a few pieces. But, other than that.....I don't know what it's called or what it's for.('cept for the fan https://discussions.virtualdr.com/)
So, I am learning now, and reading and asking and digesting.
One of my attributes is patience https://discussions.virtualdr.com/thank heavens, and I won't be jumping out there and buying yet.($$$ insufficient funds) But when I do, I want to be ready.
Great idea about the hands on. I have thought about the floppy in the old 386 I considered using. While I'm in there digging it out I will see how it's put together and taken apart. Might as well !

I also know a local tech who has stuff laying around all the time. He's already said I can ride in his back pocket while he works.
Before this project I would have not thought it would have been something I could do.
Thanks to this forum, and all those who contribute their knowledge and experiences, I can get around pretty good on this old computer.

I'm ready now for this end of it.

greengoose,
I'm fixin' to go read that link of Forrest1's now.
I'd like to have some more input too, but I have lots to read right now. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

I am behind by 2 each 486s Just got 3.1 on it after finding lose ribbons, bent pins, power supply so dirty it would not fire up. For some reason I can't be in three places at the same time. Now to get a cd-rom $50 and get it in the darn thing. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Then get in here and read some threads also.
Right now I would say I am about 10 steps behind the 8 ball. And to top it all off past bed time. what a day:Yes, yes sure I will catch up.
You all have a good day!

------------------
SMILE

might be a good idea to consult local pc shop guy for advice, too, Not the big commercial stores. mach

Just to put another two cents of advice in. Before you do any poking around/work on your computer, go to Radio Shack and purchase an anti-static wrist band. Second, find a nice clean work area with plenty of space and preferably uncarpeted. Third, If you are working in a carpeted area, make a mix of Downy & water (about 10 parts water to 1 part Downy) and spray the carpet and yourself lightly, (this will help reduce static electricity). Finally, get into the habit of working with your left hand in your pocket! If power is connected to your computer NEVER use both hands! ALWAYS disconnect your power cable before you remove or add devices, cables, change switch settings etc!

Queen of Hearts, I am making hard copies of our project so nothing will get lost. That way it will be filed and can be scanned and transmitted if required. If we don't, I feel details can get lost or overlooked. Will a compilation of resources be something else we should do? Did you see who showed up and we didn't even call any one to Hardware https://discussions.virtualdr.com/. They are watching and I don't mean "Big Brother". Gives a warm fuzzy feeling and we got more good stuff. Have a great day. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Got a headache this morning. Brain overload.

I have been thinking (OH! No !) https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Mosaic, did you mean that I would be kicking myself because I didn't go ahead and get the Intel IV or because I didn't wait until the III's come down in price because that will happen.

I found a link off one of your's, bistro, that compares the two (AMD K6 and Intel Pentium III) and gaming capabilities or something built into them concerning this) seems to be the big difference. Price right now is about the same. And happiness of users.

This is only one article so far. I'm still digging.

Another thing:
In one of those links I read if you used pieces from an existing system you could get by more reasonably. Not possible here, but it also mentioned the lousey resale value. What about that ? What if I found one somebody was just itching to get rid of (so they could get the latest) and it was just what I need as far as basics. Then, I gut most of it and put in what I want.
Maybe for my first, I wouldn't feel so intimidated if I knew I wasn't experimenting with so much money. It's not like I can hide this "fashion mistake" in the back of the closet. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

I know ..warranty.

Hi mach ! Thanks for stopping in ! Yep good idea.

sdtech, I didn't know there was such a thing as a static bracelet. Thanks ! and for your links above which I will get to.
Mosaic mentioned the static earlier, and I forgot to ask about the belt that was mentioned. I had not realized what a big deal that was. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Class, there will be a quiz on Monday from your homework....Sample questions:
1. How much money do I want to spend on this project?
2, How much money do I REALLY HAVE to spend on this project?
3. For the computer I REALLY want to build, do I qualify for a small business loan from the bank?
4. "What's that funny looking thing right there in my computer case...*ZAP* OWWWW!

QOH: Your idea of "horsetrading" for used parts that are better/newer than what you have now is a great way to upgrade---just make sure you know what you are buying, that it works OK, and better yet know the person you are buying it from. Would recommend staying away from the "Clearance Bin" in the Ma and Pa computer shops--(those shops can be good sources for parts/advice--but "The Bin" is full of evil and is "forbidden" for the unknowledgable... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/).
I've also read a lot of reviews comparing PIII and AMD. Some are pro PIII, some pro AMD. The AMD is certainly less $$ than the PIII. However, in my experience, there are fewer problems with the PIII both with gaming and applications and possible overheating. Take all those "gaming benchmarks" with a grain of salt. (Most of the differences the average person would not be able to pick up with the naked eye). In my book, I'd rather pay a few more bucks for the stability.

bistro,
I couldn't care less about the gaming stuff, and the kid's would be tickeled just to be able to play something. They'd never know the difference.

Since the Pentium III seems to be the most stable, and as Mosaic said, they should be coming down...it'll get more of my attention now.

I'm not going to worry about the case until I have made these decisions about which processor and motherboard.

I will look into the "used" too this weekend. I sure don't want somebody elses problem. [The article also said most motherboards either arrive DOA or die within the first year if they're going to.] I wouldn't mind a system with a few miles on it. I've seen loads of people not be able to stand if they don't have the latest thing. Most get handed down but I bet I could find somebody that has no heirs and just has to have a new one. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

I'll be studying for the test. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/



[This message has been edited by Queen_of_Hearts (edited 12-01-2000).]

Bistro, I took the sample test and bombed it. Looks as if I'm going to be really challenged here. I'm still wondering why the people at SBA haven't stopped laughing. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ I think I will develop a checklist for us since we've never done anything like this. The stuff on static electricity I never thought about.

All I ever wanted in a computer was something simple, dependable, and powerful and then I met you guys and my whole world has fallen apart. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

I'm with the Queen of Hearts. Have info overload, can't sleep, and my Excedrin is disappearing. Y'all have ruint me - but I'm having fun. Thanks very much, again, to all of you.

STATIC electricity.
The spark that jumps from one person to another is a MINIMUM of 50,000 volts. Luck being that the amps are not high enough to hurt us. But guess what it does to electronics. Why they cease operations immediately if not sooner.
Tried and proven many, many times. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

------------------
SMILE

Train, I did not know it was that high. So these small operating voltage components would have to be affected. E=IR would convert to I=E/R and something would have to blow. And it would not take but a fracion of a second I bet. Wow.

Queen of Hearts, Here's some more reading, courtesy of John King on one of Mach's threads. Sorry, just buy some more excedrin.

http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/

Got every thing hardcopied for reference. How you coming along. Just thought I'd ask. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

yeah...don't be like me...one time worked on a car battery and my computer at the same time... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

The best thing you could do (besides the reading) again is to take a peek inside the one you have now. Identify the basic parts:
DIMM slots: Where the RAM "sticks" are sitting.
Motherboard: That big green or brown square where all those gizmo cards are sitting on.
CPU:That flat thingy sitting on a white square (or in a slot) that has that "cute little fan" attached to it--usually close to the RAM.
Cards:What you've been plugging all those wires into at the back of the computer (sound, video, modem). Found sitting upright on the motherboard. Each has it's own "slot", which brings us to....
Slots:Don't put quarters into these!!!
They are for your "cards" (see above). Your number and type of slots may vary according to what motherboard you have, but generally all motherboards have 3 types:
AGP slot--the newer mobos (lazy techie slang for "motherboard") have just one of these and are for the "newer" AGP video cards. Make sure your new mobo has one. Usually brown or beige in color and is the closest slot to the CPU.
PCI slot(s)--those slots all lined up right after the AGP--white in color--you may have 3 to five of these. Sound cards, older vid cards and newer modems can go into these.
ISA slots--black in color--may have one to three of these--older "legacy" slots--not much used these days, but still around in most mobos to accomodate slightly older modems and older sound cards, etc..
*Some mobos have an ISA and a PCI slot "sharing" the same position and opening in the back; also the same circuitry on the mobo--I won't go into any more detail than that--no real need now.
If you look up in the corner you'll see your CD, Hard drive(s), etc. ("Ooohhh...so THAT's what they look like....". Self-explanatory.
Pay special attention to those ribbon cables dangling down to where they are connected to the mobo...that's the IDE connectors or "ports". Usually just two: IDE 1--primary, IDE 2--secondary. (Some newer mobos have four of them to accomodate ATA 66 hard drives). Look at them with awe...make friends with them...know them by their unique number...for if you don't,they might bite you in the butt later for putting the wrong cable in them. Note also that the floppy drive has it's very own connection port.
Finally (geez...can't this guy ever shut up??), look up there at that box with all those colorful wires (called "wires")protruding out of it. That's your Power Supply---without that, your computer has a real hard time booting up....a good power supply in a new system should be at least 300 watts or better. When you buy your case, the power supply is usually included.
OK, that;s enough to get you started---sorry if I'm stating the obvious--not entirely sure how much experience either of you have with this. Will try to keep it shorter next time.
I'll go and take some Tylenol now to take the pain out of my fingers...

Bistro, Please just keep doing what you are doing, I'm not having any trouble understanding you, nor I think does the Queen of Hearts, although she should speak for herself. The detail is outstanding. This is one heck of a crash course. You could be a tech writer or even better a teacher.

Background includes electronics, early computers to the 70's, teaching and development of courses and hardware for the FAA etc. I have to play catchup in state of the art. Did not have what we have today in operating systems. What has been developed both fascinates and amazes me.

Yeah...my next "upgrade" project is building a Cray 5 Super-Mainframe for myself...now, all I need to start is a big basement....have to decide if 20 Terabytes of memory is enough to play my games on....


http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/eek2.gif


[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 12-01-2000).]

That is big. Take over the computers.

Bistro, OK, took your physical component list and took a look at boards and components in the Compaq Manual and it becomes planer what is what. These manuals are not detailed though, not like the info I have been getting here on VirDr and other sites on the net. How fragile are these cables and boards that are used?

Excellent bistro !
Basic, that's perfect. Just exactly what I needed.


Do these little boards and cards come in different colors ? I'm into maroon and sage this fall. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Greegoose,

Tylenol !? We're talking Imitrex today. (seriously) Nothing to do with this ....wish I did know why.

I saw the link johnking put in mach's thread and already been there. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ ....it's a good one.

Great idea keeping all this on file. Wouldn't want to loose all this teriffic info !

Take a good look at the circuitry embedded in those cards and mobo....see how thin the "wires" are. Gotta handle all the components very carefully--a lot of pieces in there won't fit/work properly if bent or
zapped by static or if just a little piece is broken. Handle them as you would a fine piece of china. Wanna know how "hard" a hard drive is? Try dropping it a couple of feet and then see if it works properly https://discussions.virtualdr.com/. Now, I'm not suggesting you rent out a surgical room and do all this by robotic arms; just treat the components of the computer with care. Besides, you need to go slow; some of the metal edges inside the case are sharp enough to shave with.

greengoose1
Now you understand way static is real bad with these fancy machines. Found out about the that in a electrical course. And have seen what it can do.

------------------
SMILE

Bistro,
Some of the "little wires" already do look bent. I was tempted to straighten those out.
Guess not, huh ?

Lot's of dust too, since I last peeked in there !

What does the hard drive look like ? Can I see it ?

[This message has been edited by Queen_of_Hearts (edited 12-01-2000).]

When I reseated the ribbon cables when I was having my CD-ROM problem, they were tight in the slots, I was afraid I'd break them, the pins.

Well, I just found my jar of change, so I guess I'll throw in another two cents! Every time I build a computer for a family member or friend etc. I always ask the same question. "Do you have more time than money?"
If money is no object, then build the biggest, fastest Frankenstein you can! If you find you have more time than cash, then cutting edge components should be scratched from your shopping list.
As was mentioned in an earlier post, you should have a good idea of what this computer is to be used for. If its going to be a general purpose/family type of machine, you can get a good idea for the minimum specs for hardware by going to a good software store. Find the various software packages you intend to use or purchase during the next year and look for the manufacturer's minimum recommendations on the side of the box. These recommendations identify any special requirements needed to run the software. They may include: the Operating System it needs to run on, minimum CPU requirements, minimum hard drive space for installation, minimum RAM for operation, minimum CD-ROM speed and finally, the minimum video board requirements.

Queen_of_Hearts
That is why the sell cans of compressed air.
to dust things off with.

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SMILE

https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Now don't go in there and start unbending wires---some of them are supposed to be bent. When replacing cables, etc. you just have to take care when seating them; it's fairly easy to end up bending the little pins and forcing two of them into the same hole on the connector cable. As for dust, get yourself one of those doo-dad computer vacuums at your local shop and clean it up in there---especially on and around all the fans (except the power supply fan---do not take that apart without some supervision--has some capacitors in there that, unless given time to discharge, could demonstrate how unfriendly electricity can be...). Do NOT use a household vacuum!! Some other guy quite a while back on the other forum confessed to doing that--sucked up half of his components---duh.....
By those "little wires", I was referring to the embedded ("etched") circuitry you see on the surface of the mobo and your cards (along with the electrical components soldered to them). Static, skin oil/acid from your fingers, dropping, smacking against a table, etc. etc. can fracture those things quite easily--hairline fractures that you can't see, but are still big enough to break the circuit. Handle with care. Now please don't freak out and get the idea (as I've said before) that you're going to need a "clean room" and surgical gowns to do all this. Just go step-by-step, be patient and handle all the parts with reasonable care.
QoH, your hard drive is located up there behind the front panel---probably looks like a silver, rectangular hockey-puck with a circuit board on the bottom--it's connected by a ribbon cable to the motherboard.
Well, it's way past bedtime for me---gotta catch my ZZZZZ's--my daughter's B'day tomorrow (she's 9...going on 15) https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Will check back tomorrow sometime. Hope some other folks will join in with some good info.
You might also consider starting a new (Part3) thread with the first post referring back to this one with an explanation of what's going on. That way, this one doesn't get too long and take folks too long to download.
Bye for now.



[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 12-02-2000).]

uh oh ! You mean I shouldn't have used the Air Compressor ? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/

Train,
I'll get a can tomorrow. I blew it off a little bit (with my lungs) but that just kinda stirred it up.

While it's open again tomorrow I'll see if I can locate the hard drive.

Thanks guys. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/