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Good Morning All, While we are talking about fans, filters, and temperature requirements, how is the temperature measured and where? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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'Morning (over there...),
Modern mainboards are often equiped with one or more temp. sensors place around the board. A sensor is normally found below the processor (FC-PGA/socket A) to measure the temperature at the surface of the chip. This is probably as close to the actual core as you can get, without actually being there. This sensor is often monitored by software build into the bios, and the readings can be observed through the bios.
Another (factory) sensor may be placed somewhere else on the board to give a reading of "system temperature", eg. the temperature inside the case near the board. Sometimes this can be read through the bios also.
If you want to measure temperatures in other places around the PC, you have to supply these sensors yourself and place them where you like. Usually such seperately bought sensors include some kind of monitoring device (LCD meter or whatever).
Monitoring the temperature directly through bios readings doesn't seem very practical (requires constant rebooting), which is why some smart people have written programs that can perform this task from within Windows, by accessing the bios from there. The best known of these programs is probably MBM (haven't got the address present, someone else probably has?). This program also contain a lot of other nice features.
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
For those who are serious about constantly monitoring temps, there's CompuNurse and Digital Doc. Have used both (DD on system now). The CompuNurse is a rather simple temp monitor (Celcius only--us poor, uneducated Americans have to convert). Has just one sensor per display (Bay type has two displays, thus monitor two areas) and is battery powered. It's on all the time; but you can modify it with an off/on switch. Fairly inexpensive.
The Digital Doc can monitor temps (both F and C) and fans all over the system--runs off the power supply. It's currently monitoring my CPU, system (inside case temp), space around the power supply, vid card and the area around the 2 hard drives. Con: It's expensive https://discussions.virtualdr.com/.
On the Digital Doc, there are two different types of sensors/probes. The area sensor is a cable with a regular nub at the end and is placed in an area of the case where you just want to monitor the general air space. The other sensor(s) have a very flat end and are supplied with thermal tape. You can attach that sensor very close (1/4 to 1/8 inch) to the CPU between the heat sink and the chip without interfering with the contact between the two (Careful here--a lot depends on your particular heat sink/CPU). Pretty accurate temp monitoring (+/- one degree). Can tape another sensor to the back of the vid card right under the main chip(or in close proximity to the chip itself). Also has fan connectors to monitor rpms and can turn on/off automatically according to pre-set temps (mine are just on all the time regardless of temp). This feature helps keep the system noise down for those who desire it.
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-07-2001).]
Looks like a quiet day. We have a feel for fans, temperatures, temp equip., but what about putting it together. How have some of you actually made your cooling mods. Maybe a couple more or so of how it was actually accomplisked to give the reader a feel of the task involved. Any body mount temp probes?
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Just a side note:
Could you hack a regular "take-yer-temp" digital thermometer for you're computer use?
[This message has been edited by Nisus (edited 06-07-2001).]
You can fasten a probe to the heatsink. I would place it as close as possible to the cpu..
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Now THERE'S a good question....if you decide to use a regular glass thermometer, which one to use: oral or rectal? Hmmmmm...
Depends I guess if you want to monitor incoming cool air, or measure the exhaust....
I just changed the mainboard to an Abit in a PC. This nice board (BX133) comes with a standard sensor right beneath the processor and then there was a connector on the board to connect a cable with sensor in the other end "to place and meassure at your own choice..". Now, where does one place such a free gift...? My eyes at last fell on that large green chipset cooler (think it hides the BX chipset) and I fastened the sensor there.
I might as well have placed the sensor anywhere else - but where, any suggestions?
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
The next hottest thing in there usually is the vid card. Or you can hook it up to drape down into the middle of the case to monitor the general system temp.
I haven't located it yet, but according to the bios there is a general system sensor somewhere, so this is a third monitoring sensor - I'm impressed.
I don't use these "heavy duty" graphics cards (it's a simple Nvidia Vanta 32 MB), so I guess it doesn't get too hot (no fast 3D gaming). There's only a static heatsink attached to it.
I put in some of these new PC166 MHz RAM sticks from PQI. They've got some sort of cooling coat attached on the chip-side. I wonder how hot they get...?
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
32MB get hot enough. Mine is a Hercules 32MB.
Mine locks up at about 105F on the heatsink.
Still can't afford the kit.
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So far, CPU running at 100% for ½ hour, system temp says 27 C, CPU reads 45 C and the chipset cooler surface is around 54 C. There is one 120 mm intake fan at the front, the CPU fan and the exhaust fan in the PS - not much, but it seems to be keeping things at a relatively moderate temp.
I could wish for a maybe 4-5 C lower CPU temp, but there is no room for a regular exhaust fan at the rear (it's an old Siemens case).
I guess I'll let it run at 100 % through the night and see if it still lives in the morning.
'night.
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
Where would fans be placed on a mini tower, a mid sized, or a fulltower. Same places on each size tower?
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You try to, But. . .
Some just do not allow for the best positioning.
Might have to place it in the top [blowhole] instead. Just not best place. You do want the air to cross the motherboard and definately the cpu.
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So, once again, holes are placed to do the most good with the air from the fan/fans pushing more than pulling to set up a positive air flow.
A quick fix for the tower heating more in the summer is the placement of a house fan to push air onto the tower.
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Best place for exhaust is close to the CPU--air flow from the bottom front, up across the mobo near the vid card and out the exhaust (exhausting system heat and CPU heat). When selecting a case, look for ones that either have both fans installed already, or at least provide a spot for an exhaust (the better ones do). Antec, Inwin cases come to mind among others. For mid-tower (with a high-end vid card and CPU) to full towers, recommend a 120mm intake fan in the front. You may have to enlarge the hole from a 60mm. A 60mm or 80mm (better) for an exhaust. Full towers often have room for one or two additional exhaust fans up above the power supply.
In addition: Check the innards for your IDE ribbon cables and wires. Are they dangling all over the place? Especially that &^%$ long floppy cable? Well, if those cables are turned just right, then you have sails in there--restricting the air flow. Better to fold them up gently (don't put a hard crease in them), tie them up with a rubber band or plastic tie, and tuck them up as best as you can. Be careful not to dislodge any of the connections to the mobo or devices as you do so. (Would be a good idea to double-check all the connections after doing the tuck and tie routine). You can drop the temps down 1 or two degrees, maybe more, in some cases.
ONCE AGAIN https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ UNPLUG the system first and remember to touch the chassis before sticking your fingers in there. No sense in zapping that nice vid card or something else.
Some folks are going in for factory-rounded IDE, ATA and/or floppy cables
(Examples). They help in reducing air drag, but don't look for dramatic drops in temps. They help to reduce the "clutter" though. Using spiral wrap or plastic ties on the power supply wiring helps a little bit also.
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-08-2001).]
Well, it didnt' last more than maybe one hour before the graphics card had frozen up (machine kept running, though..). Seems you were right again, bistro (hate when that happens..)....
The temperatures hadn't changed much during the last 5 hours, but I think I'll dig into my junkpile and see if I can find a graphics card with a fan on top of the chip - and that extra sensor will then be placed somewhere near by!
Maybe I should cannibalize one of those smaller (50 mm) fans from the old harddisk cooler and see if that will fit in at the rear, near the CPU, something's better than nothing....hmmmm....would sure like to suck some more air across that board....hmmm...
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
[This message has been edited by kallikru (edited 06-08-2001).]
And so we learn that temperature plays an important part in how well your system works. Still need to do the inspecting of the innards, but tomorrow after a few cups of coffee :-D and when we (hopefully) have some free time.
Ciao!
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Well, if I'm still posting, my computer must be still running! Thank you, Virtual Doctor!
Good Morning All, There is certainly alot to consider in keeping a computer cool. Ain't computers fun?
Bistro, I liked especially the part about the ribbon cable acting lke a sail. Very nice. Having sailed for many years....oops. Sorry. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ I really didn't want to mention the temp probe having been exposed to your comments on probes in the Operation Delta Threads and I was right. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
kallikru, I quit many moons ago on Bistro to get ahead of him. Waste of time. I hate it too, but what can you do about it. He has probably got a job that he is paid to do this to us. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Matt, Back in the Operation Delta threads, I found out just how important cooling is. Before then, I never gave much thought to it. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
What about some of the rest of you. Got any good cooling stories? Or do you call it "events" is this day and age. That's it. Any good cooling events? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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hi,
on december 29, 2000, someone asked about OEM chips
I'll use some relevant exerpts from that thread
JAL>
As far as I know. In reguards to processors the only difference between the "boxed" And "OEM" is the warranty. Personally I buy the cheapers ones. If your overclocking then you may find out that you get no warranty at all! I overclocked a system long ago and it killed the board and the processor after about 6 months! I am sure heat was the demise of the chip and board. Dust buildup! It wasn't very much but it was enough plus it was August, hotest month of the year! (486 at 160 mghtz) Originally 486 133 mghtz! I have personally worked on some pretty clogged up systems (dust) And the cheaper processors hold up just fine. In these days buy a good copper heatsink and fan! You'll have no probs if properly clocked!
Jtdoom>
the OEM buys them without heatsink and cooler, and plonks whatever they think is adequate of the description "cooling" on the package.
Often without thermal grease too...
Intel boxed fcpga come with intel cooler (these have an intel holomark, and have a thermal pad), or come fully assembled when in secc2 package, again with holomark.
Hence the boxed intel always carry three year warranty, whereas OEM passes on whatever warranty they like or got from distributor (often less than what they got from distri).
btw, a cpu is tested at different speeds, and many people think it will be cool to OC it
Once the clockspeed exeeds whatever cache or cpu can handle, problemo.
cache misses usu appear first, kills the illgotten gains....
my advice, do not OC, get proper boxed CPU.
(edit>> make that properly COOLED CPU)
and then I pasted a txt I wrote about CPU COOLING
When load on CPU increases, and temperature climbs, and after a while sound/video starts to stutter.….
And hell, It may even reboot right into bios…..
Well, if any of that happens, I suggest you look at CPU cooling.
about heat problems.
Just remember that when I mention thermal interface, I mean the connecting surfaces of cooler and CPU. The coolerplate sometimes does not fully connect, which you can see when you hold it against light and look between cooler and cpu.
If you need to pull out the CPU assembly to look into this matter, be sure to remove POWERCORD. If a bunch of ribbon/cables are blocking air from the CPU fan, try moving them out of harms way. Adding a second system fan can do a lot of good. Used wisely, it creates a cross flow thru the case, and graphics card and CPU will benefit.
One way of deducing if the cooler is properly attached and gets proper thermal connection is quite simple.
If you boot into bios and look at CPU temp, it should stay below 36 to 38C.
Then you boot into the Operating system (windows, whatever) and play a demanding game for a while, or do some heavy number cruching, Kill the app, and immediately shut off/reboot into bios where you again check CPU temp.
If you see temps of over 55C, and not dropping rapidly to below 40C, you may have to look at the thermal interface.
apply a thin film of thermal compound, and when you put the coolerplate back on you instantly feel if the connect is good as it kinda sticks. If not, you may have some wrong type of hardware installed in the assembly (been known to happen) preventing the surfaces to fully connect.
btw, you can use one of those credit card like things to evenly distribute the thermal paste. You probably have a ton of those cards they issue at the malls which you don't use. I see people say they use a razor.
I consider that rather unwise.
it's metal, and it can hurt YOU and the CPU
make sure there are no bubbles in the paste
(I will tell you a secret, I use my index finger)
As an aside, I am kinda annoyed when I see OEM Flipchips come with stickers on the chip. for example, one paper sticker (covering half o/t chip and applied over the smaller sticker) and one small white plasticky sticker with SN (Bang in centre of chip, covering about one third). The smaller one says warranty void if removed, but they'd sure interfere with cooling since the chip and coolerplate surfaces would not completely connect. When I installed them OEMs, I peeled them clean and put them stickers where they do no harm. My vendor agrees that their placement is quite stupid, and agreed to my moving them. (thus I keep warranty)
It's quite another story on INTEL Boxed solutions, because the tape seen on the cooler is a thermal pad. (the intel boxed assemblies' warranty is MUCH better)
Also, avoid slotket solutions with OEM chips....
http://support.intel.com/support/pro...ii/thermal.htm
<A HREF="ftp://download.intel.nl/support/processors/manuals/fcpgaman1.pdf" TARGET=_blank>
ftp://download.intel.nl/support/processors/manuals/fcpgaman1.pdf</A>
Thermal Airflow Considerations - SECC2 OLGA Heat Sink Cooling In an ATX CHASSIS
Pentium® III Processor Thermal Design Guidelines
temperature metrology
many mobo have a thermal detector built in.
on slot one mobo, one could see a flimsy strip crawl under the CPU frock https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ anyway, the CPU have a thermal detect built in. (the PC siren goes off when cpu goes in thermal protect and CPU shuts off), but some mobo bioses cannot talk to it.
on those mobo where thermal detector was an option only, one can sometimes still stick one of them thermistor strips to the CPU assembly.
btw, if some of my words seem weird, primo, I speak Flemish, secundo, it's my laymans' way.
when you read above, it told you about an easy way to check for thermal problems.
Of course, that was if one had the thermometer option in mobo...
If a game starts to "stutter"
(sound stutters, or graphics hang and sound stutters) you can be reasonably sure there IS a thermal problem.
some URL were defunct >> corrected
[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 06-08-2001).]
Jaak, good post. I hope the people that have been posting sound problems read this. Easy way to check the temp. Thanks for bringing this info back. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Good information!
So the bottom line is no overclocking? I slightly overclocked my PIII 600eb and I don't have any problem with cooling, good cup,case fans and powersupply. I did all the things Bristo suggested in his posts.
Quote:
Originally posted by jtdoom:
btw, a cpu is tested at different speeds, and many people think it will be cool to OC it Once the clockspeed exeeds whatever cache or cpu can handle, problemo.cache misses usu appear first, kills the illgotten gains....
my advice, do not OC, get proper boxed CPU.
Hi defung, Not really, you can overclock if you know what you are doing. And that comes from reading and learning about it. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Quite right,goose, overclocking is only to be done once you know your system and what your messing with it will do to it. But then the fun starts - and the struggle to keep things cool, it's really all about that - cooling.
I have to admit that I hardly ever run a system that isn't overclocked just a bit.
But I suggest we leave that discussion to some other thread - would be too much to cope with here. Just the basics and the sound advice - no tempting. Stay https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Karl, Denmark
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"..and may The Force be with you too..."
kallikru, We can talk about cooling the over clocked machine which would help those with overclocked computers, but yes, the subject of overclocking best wait as it will be a weekly subject. After we get done with cooling we will start building and the first subject will what we have to think about or "Considerations Before Building". https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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well bistro, congrats on your 5K
and a big welcome to our new member dodge https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
what happened?
Thanks all for all the congrats. Yeah, let's leave the oc'ing for another time--that can get quite involved. How about a thread for anyone who wishes to downgrade?
"I have a 1.3 ghz Pentium with 512 mb RAM and a GeForce 3 64 mb card. It's WAY too fast; boots up in 10 seconds, which doesn't give me enough time to get my cup of coffee. Any suggestions on how to bring it down a bit?"
Hey, it's different.... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Dear "Fast": It takes a lot of technical know-how in order to do what you are asking. As a favor, I'll do it for you. Please send your system to me at the following address and I'll check it out for you. Please be patient; downgrades like this can take quite a bit of time.....
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 06-08-2001).]
Drop it from 17" off the floor. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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I will take it, that will give you all time you need to make and get your coffee. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Jaak. I am in here as much as possible. Just dont butt in where I dont belong. I read your alls responses so I can learn...
BTW, I still want a password so I can use DODGE again...... Guess Max was right the other day when he said they were trying to tell me something.....lol
That'd cool him off Train https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Dodge and JTDoom - Mail Call
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goose, back at ya.. need you to explaing... thanks....
Jaak, wrote a little something Firewalls for ya.. Actually copy and pasted mostly.....lol
Jaak, sorry bout that. I thought your question was because I hadn't posted in this thread again...
I just found that I'm a JUNIOR again.... I have no Idea as to what happened. My password quit working, so I emailed Housen over it. Now I see that my status has went to junior..... Still cant use that name though... Vdr Gotta love it>>>>>>LOL
I need to replace the heatsink on my Pent II, 266mhz, but I cannot get the very bottom plate to budge. I will have to take the processor out completely, I think to be able to work it loose, but have never done this before. What happens when you take out the processor? Any tips, hints , or tricks? I know I need a new puter, but am too green to build one , and can't find a desktop system I like. No proprietary systems, no restore disks, no Win me, I want Win2k.
Am running Win 98SE, 128 mb ram. now. TIA, kat
That heat sink is probably glued to the processor by thermal glue. There is one way; but very risky. You run as many intensive programs as possible for a while without the CPU fan running. Then take an oven mitt and remove the processor, then take a butter knife and slowly pry the heat sink off. The other way is to freeze the processor/heat sink, then do the same. Either way, you risk fracturing. Better just to live with it. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
katsatxlady
You have to be very careful with this, But sometimes you can [after you put the heatsink back on] Is to start it up and let it warm up for a minute or two. Then shut it down disconnect everything and then see if it will come loose. Heat will some times loosen up the glue/abhesive/paste that is holding there. Sometimes this works.
I think that if you are digging in there already, you can do it https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ Build one that is.
What's wrong with the heatsink you have now ?
If the fan quit, it can be replaced.
Edit: bistro again https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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[This message has been edited by Train (edited 06-08-2001).]
I've heard the Pro's and Con's on this subject before.
So Bistro, in your opinion does the Heat Sink need to be replaced? Is there any side effects of leaving it there?
Also, just for the lukers that may be wondering. What is the best Kind of Heat Sink to get (what brand)???
Sry folks, but I have to replace the fan, its virtually holding on by a thread, dirty and fixin to fall off. (I am a smoker) The clips were defective in the 1st place, but I found out too late. My hub is a retired Navy master electrician, and he says to wrap, a tie-wrap around the whole thing and forgetaboutit???? What does he know, he works on 50 ft cranes, welding machines, power poles and stuff.
I also can upgrade my processor very easily,but need the heat sink working . I am also having system probs, (CD-RW messed up and uninstalled right now, think its overheating big time) Am trying to get 1st things 1st and systematically, and slowly upgrade till I can find a system I can live with/afford.
Will copy the suggestions and ask him to take the processor/and plate off, so if he messes up, he will have to get me a new one, lol...besides, I have a fear of all that electrical stuff.
I mainly wondered if disconnecting the processor would require any special consideration when putting it back on.
Thanks for the replies, appreciate it.
kat
Better to just leave it on unless you are prepared to replace the CPU.
Lots of good heatsink/CPU fans out there.
Some samples HERE. Now, these are fancy ones--good for higher-end chips and/or overclocking. For your chip, you may not need to go this far. A good one inch heat sink with a fan may be all you need.
Some CPU fans blow away from the heat sink; other blow onto the heat sink. The latter seems to be more effective in my experience.