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I found a good list on BIOS errors and thus answered my own question. Try this.
With what we have learned and this list, you may never go into BIOS unless you know you have to. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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The whole book, goose? Darn good link. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
[This message has been edited by Train (edited 06-30-2001).]
This list takes a lot of guesswork out of troubleshooting and someone using it will/can save themselves some grief I figure. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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I agree. That is a great site. Thanks Goose..
Thanks for all the good info folks. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Sorry if this question is a little off-topic. Why don't motherboard manufacturers make boards with easily replacable BIOS chips? I mean easy like snapping in a RAM stick. Since a wrecked BIOS is so severe a problem, wouldn't this make sense? Screw up your chip and order a new one. Is there a technical reason for this or just a business decision.
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I want my Win98 Emachine back !!!
MAXXIMILIAN'S
Hi,
it may be severe, but it is rare.
besides, it can often be reflashed with RECOVERY mode flash.
A recovery mode FLASH works when the boot rom is still valid, and the recovery mode pins are not solderjumpered to NORMAL
I saw that on a few boards https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
You can still see where the pins would have been, but have no pins, and one finds a shunt soldered on 1-2... take it in they say... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ However, recovery mode flash is SELDOM required https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
when you get in a real pickle with BIOS, clear CMOS usually gets you back to defaults.
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one special note...
its been covered before.
FLIP FLOP.
your machine worked, and you left it.
when you get back, it has shut itself off.
and you cannot get it back on....
first thing you should try is remove power from power supply, and leave it be for a while.
Then try power up.
If it does, you better get into bios and disable power management or set it to stay ON.
when that happens, it indicates your powersupply is not up to the demands ACPI requires to power up after Standby.
getting into standby the the flipflop flipped off, but being underpowered it don't flop the flop and the machine stays flipped off. You shouldn't flip out and flop the machine flippidyflop to the pavement ten storeys down. No, you make the flipflop reset itself.
Well, don't THAT sound strange... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
Newer Bios chips can be flashed. Just what is "flashing a BIOS".
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GG1, don't ask...
next wednesday we will visit the BIOS brewery.
We'll do a Flash visit, and then lose all our settings
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
Maxx: The BIOS chip is removable on most mobos--just takes a little more effort. They don't "blow" and do not have to be replaced all that often. If they do, it's really more to one's benefit to just get a new mobo than to replace the BIOS chip. A lot of BIOS's are designed just for that particular mobo. While one may replace the chip, they may lose certain features of the mobo, or it may not work properly at all. More and more now with newer mobos you can't just replace it with a "generic" BIOS chip; have to go to the mobo manufacturer for a specific one.
NOTE: DO NOT flash BIOS in DOS Command Prompt mode under Windows .
NOTE: DO NOT flash BIOS in DOS Command Prompt mode under Windows .
NOTE: DO NOT flash BIOS in DOS Command Prompt mode under Windows .
NOTE: DO NOT flash BIOS in DOS Command Prompt mode under Windows .
NOTE: DO NOT flash BIOS in DOS Command Prompt mode under Windows .
NOTE: DO NOT flash BIOS in DOS Command Prompt mode under Windows .
NOTE: DO NOT flash BIOS in DOS Command Prompt mode under Windows .
for normal flashing procedure, read the readme
a couple examples on recovery flash, which is NOT same as normal flash procedure
Quote:
Flash BIOS Recovery Disks
IMPORTANT!
These recovery disks are provided by Micro Firmware as a free public service.
We are providing the original BIOS code as provided by the manufacturer and publicly available for download from several sources, but we put it into an easy-to-use package with a simple and reliable disk generator and step-by-step instructions.
The BIOS Recovery procedure is to be performed only if something happens which corrupts or overwrites the Flash BIOS. It is essential that the correct file for your system board is used - please verify the identity of the motherboard using the indicated part numbers. Flash recovery should be performed only under the advice of Micro Firmware or other qualified support personnel.
So that we can ensure control over the revisions, documentation, and warnings, we ask that these recovery disk packages not be posted elsewhere.
These files are all self-extracting ZIP files. Each ZIP fle contains a README file, a text file with boot block recovery instructions, and a self-extracting diskette image which is used to create a recovery disk. Please read the README file and the boot block recovery instructions before proceeding.
the readme of one of these disks
The file DXLB.EXE is a self-extracting diskette image of a
BIOS recovery disk for the Micronics DXLB motherboard.
This image file creates a recovery disk only on a 1.44MB diskette.
To create the recovery disk, type in the filename (DXLB), the program
will detect which drive, if any is a 1.44MB, and will ask for a blank,
high-density diskette to be inserted into that drive. It doesn't
really matter if this disk is blank or whether or not it has been
formatted - it will be completely overwritten.
The resulting BIOS recovery disk will contain a copy of the original
BIOS for this motherboard. Please refer to the included file
DXLB-REC.TXT for instructions on using this recovery disk.
Note that the recovery disk is not in a DOS format - if you attempt to
access the diskette, DOS will return an error message such as
"General Failure Reading Drive A:".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Micro Firmware Technical Support http://www.firmware.com/support/recovery/
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http://www.aopen.com.cn/tech/download/mbbios/readme.htmQuote:
Intel® Workstation Board OR840
BIOS Recovery
NOTE: Use BIOS recovery ONLY if the update procedure in the readme.txt included with the Intel® Workstation Board OR840 BIOS file is not possible.
To perform a BIOS recovery, you will need a bootable disk that contains the Intel Workstation Board OR840 BIOS Update utility and the Intel Workstation Board OR840 BIOS <http://appsr.intel.com/scripts-df/Product_Filter.asp?ProductID=104> file in .bin format. This will be your recovery disk. Perform the following steps:
[list=a][*]Remove power to the system and remove the BIOS Configuration jumper at location J1F2. [*]Insert your recovery disk into the floppy drive [*]Restore power to your system, and turn the system on. [*]The recovery process takes a few minutes, during which time there will be no video activity. However, the floppy drive LED should be lit. The recovery process is complete when you hear a 3-3-3 beep code from your onboard speaker. [*]After you hear the beep, power down the system and replace the jumper at J1F2 across pins 1-2. [*]Power up your system to verify that the BIOS has been restored
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as you see, the manufactor of you motherboard will provide the method you should use,
But please, PLEASE check if you absolutely NEED to do it...
You may not have a problem, and when things go wrong (they can) you may create one.
if it ain't broke, go fishing instead.
btw, next wednesday is a good day for looking at a BIOS...
come on over guys https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
Bistro, Please correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying that the BIOS chip and Mobo are assembled and then the program is set in the BIOS chip?
I don't think there is any doubt now about BIOS that "you should not fix it if it ain't broke". But with the knowledge of BIOS that is being presented it becomes a powerful aid in diagnosis.
Any one have any tips or tricks that would help us?
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Thanks for the information guys. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ I just don't know how you keep a handle on it all. You guys lost me on the first page...LOL https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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I want my Win98 Emachine back !!!
MAXXIMILIAN'S
maxximilian
are you trying to say you are Lost 2 https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
GG1 asked a question, and we did not answer it https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
What is flashing a BIOS is not same as HOW to flash a bios...
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you are a consumer, and have a very inquisitive mind...
You peel off the sticker you find on the BIOS chip so as to find some more info, perhaps. Or because you cannot help being so inquisitive https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Well, if you see a tiny window in there, you had better not wait and put that sticker back on...
Exposing the window to harsh light, may do damage.
you see, the word "Flashing" , came from a photo etching process.
In other words, LIGHT is used to alter the electrical state of light sensitive materials...
you, as a consumer, do not have the equipment to photoflash.
Neither do you need it.
and exposing the window to light may corrupt the data that was put in there with this method.
so, don't take risks, and don't peel off that sticker...
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EEPROM
eletrically erasable programmable Read Only Memory
its (part of) a chip where the data can be altered by using a higher voltage.
(you see it coming? yes, I know a guy who had to flash his BIOS after he had caused a powerspike flowing through his mobo. he had seen a spark when he was plugging/unplugging a NON USB device connector while his machine was running. I would have to ask what exactly it was, but I know he asked me what to do, and he came here to get an old ISA and PCI videocard since he saw no screen at all. We prepared the floppies here. When he got home, his luck was that the bootblock was still okay, and he got it running again.
The PCI gave him screen output...)
where was I?
Ah yes.
Anyway, the BIOS holds a "rewritable" part that can be "flashed" by a user when he uses the "flash" program.
how does it work?
The way I understand it is like this.
The flash program increases the voltage to memory cells in such a way that its state is altered in accordance with the binary data provided in the mybios.BIN file.
During normal operation, the memory cells are read only.
When something BAD like POWERLOSS happens while the bootblock is being rewritten, you can wind up with a dead mobo.
Chances that this mishap occurs are small.
A well written flash program will check if the BIN file is intended for your motherboard.
As long as the bootblock is intact, you can do a flash..
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You do have to make sure the floppy is absolutely defect free.
You should not leave drvspace.BIN on the floppy if you had to make it bootable yourself.
(format a: /s puts drvspace.bin on the floppy. Unhide it, and DELETE IT)
Read the readme, and make a BACKUP of the old BIOS
Yes, you can. The Flash program can do it for you, so DO IT.
Matter of fact, one of the manufactor sites asks you make TWO flash disks.
IMHO, that's Good thinking...
When you do it, copy the old BIOS to BOTH of these floppies.
iow, don't flash with the first floppy but make the backup copy of old BIOS only..
Then flash with the second floppy and again save the old BIOS before you proceed overwriting the BIOS.
Why use the flash floppy to backup twice?
Ain't there no such thing as diskcopy?
Well, some of these disks do not use MS-DOS, and floppies are fragile at best...
One of our members once told us to put the flash program on hard drive.
At first glance, not bad thinking, provided the program runs in MS-DOS.
When it runs in DOS, go ahead, its a lot safer than a floppy. Yet there are a few reservations..
(when I read that tip posted a few months ago, I tried it out and done it from hard drive to see if it worked, and it worked. BUT...)
Primo;
I know its rarely done this way, but when the Flash is done in a two stage process to do something you normally ought NOT do, (***) see comment and requires a reboot to complete the flash, then it's "hey!! where is the hard disk? ? "
whereas A floppy will Always be found by the bootblock...
ermm, please note that this is not same as the normal flash procedure, which is done without a reboot to continue the flash.
The normal flash can be a two stages process, but it will do it in the same session. See the remark at (***)
(I already regret I brought it up)
Secundo;
drvspace.bin will be in root of C:
and while most people can delete it, you should later put it back there.
(when I did the trial, I deleted it.)
It would be a stupig moronic programmer creating a flash program that will accept drvspace.BIN as source file, but hey, Murphy is alive and thrives...
Last, the flash program readme indicates there should be NO memory manager loaded.
When you boot from hard disk, a memory manager may get loaded.
The next best thing was to boot from the floppy you made as per instructions, and then change to the directory on hard drive where the program and bios file were copied to, and run it from there.
So you see, even when you want to run flash from hard disk, you'd still want to make two copies of that floppy.
(and later put the saved BIOS on it.)
That's because you may need the recovery mode, and that DOES NOT work from hard disk.
And please, remember to DELETE drvspace.BIN from these floppies.
Hmmm.
Please folks, whatever I said in here is open for discussion. I ain't a guru.
A wise-ass maybe? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Anyway, you just read my layman's understanding on this subject.
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It's caused By My Flemishness!
Jaak
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(***) something I read at Bill Selk's page on AL440LX made me say that.
in that particular example, they first overwrite the bootblock with a bios NOT from OEM manufactor.
and after the reboot, they do the second stage of the Flash.
(they do it to make the mobo accept a CPU it was not designed for. This illustrates the impact a BIOS has on the functionality of the motherboard.
but guys, what Bill Selk writes ain't the NORMAL way things go. You should NEVER flash with a BIOS file not written for your brand and type of motherboard.
When you do such thing, and it messes you up, you knew the risk.
The AL440LX was once a very popular board, and many OEM had small changes put in.
when the change is cosmetic only, and the OEM hasn't meddled with hardware, the mobo manufactor's newer BIOS may work, even if the OEM has not validated its use..
That's what Bill Selk's page on AL440LX is about.
OEM like Packard Bell and HP ask a LOT more than cosmetic changes when they have a mobo manufactor produce a series to their OEM specifications.
you'd probably kill the mobo made for HP or PB when you flash it with the manufactor's lookalike.
jeesh, there is indeed a lot to tell about this stuff.
when do I get my virtual pay-cheque?
[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 07-02-2001).]
Well, as usual I'm away for a while and things have moved on. Sorry I missed the end of the last thread. Looks like there was some minor excitement, maybe even a few loose ends left. Oh well... Things seemed to have progressed quite a bit here, so let me start catching up. Everyone go grab a cold one (maybe a few), this (as usual) could take a while. As usual, forgive the length and any redundancy. And bear with me, as this is surely going to be disjointed. I also apologize for disturbing the flow of things by jumping in here in the middle.
Not to confuse things, but it might be worthwhile mentioning/clarifying something. In this thread "the bios" is being discussed. But there isn't just one BIOS in/on a PC (and I'm not referring to "dual-bioses", which I will later). A "bios" in the strictest sense is a (low level) program, a set of instructions, used to control and/or provide the interface to a particular component or device in a PC. Add-on cards and devices can (and frequently do) also have a bios. Furthermore, today's motherboards sometimes have more than one bios (again, I'm not referring yet to the dual-bioses). They can have separate/additional bioses to handle such things as built-in SCSI and/or RAID controllers. In a lot of cases these "other" bioses get referred to as "firmware", perhaps for clarity. But the fact remains they are bioses, and do get referred to as such. Now generally when "the bios" is talked about what is meant is the "system" bios, the (main) bios on the motherboard of a pc that performs certain functions. And in the context of this thread this is the bios being discussed. But knowing there are these other bioses is important from a general understanding standpoint, and from a maintenance and diagnosis standpoint. It's also important to know in the context of the portions of this thread where the boot process is discussed. The system bios is not the only bios that comes in to play, is executed, produces messages, and can result in errors during the boot process. The system bios frequently starts/invokes other bioses in the process of carrying out its actions. The bios of a video card is a classic (and common) example. Like I said, I didn't mean to confuse things here. My intention was to clarify.
Others have already pointed out that the bios is a chip on the motherboard. This chip is nothing more than memory. At the highest level this memory consists of, or can conceptually be thought of in terms of, two components: one holding code (executable instructions), the other data (info/settings). Each of these parts can then be broken down further in terms of their contents and characteristics.
What I refer to as the data portion of the bios contains three types of data:
1) Pre-programmed (pre-set) data, constants, etc. These are set at the factory (so to speak). They can be such things as default values, text strings, messages, etc. These are static, they remain in the bios memory from boot to boot, and whether the machine or power is on or not. They can be changed, but only through reprogramming (such as through bios flashing).
2) Dynamic info and settings. This is data that gets detected, determined, collected by the bios initialization processing during a cold boot. These are retained for the time the PC remains on, or until another cold boot is done. When the machine is powered down these settings are discarded/lost.
3) Saved settings, info and parameters. There are two catagories here. One is data the system (bios) sets/collects. Most notable is the Extended Configuration Data. Jaak talked about this so I won't. The other category here is data that the user sets/inputs (via the bios setup). These are some of the settings others here have referred to (the hard drive definitions, the date/time, etc, etc). This is information that (ideally) can be, that we want to be, set and remain in effect until a change is needed or made requiring them to be updated. These are the aforementioned (and frequently referred to) "cmos setttings". Now the portion of the bios, the memory, that holds this data is a little different. It requires a constant supply of power to it in order to retain the information in it. Without this power the information is lost. But as stated above, we want this information retained. We don't want to set it every time we turn on our PC. So to supply this constant power motherboards rely on a small battery, the infamous "cmos battery" that we all know and love. Of course if this battery dies or is removed, then our settings are lost. Now when the information is lost it doesn't mean everything is set to blank/empty/nada. Instead a series of default values and settings are used, put in, by the bios. These defaults will always be enough to allow you to boot up far enough to get in to bios setup. But whether these will be enough for the system to boot fully or operate properly depends. It depends on what defaults the particular bios uses, it depends on the given pc (its hardware and configuration). For this reason it is always advisable to go in to the bios setup and check/reset various info if battery power is lost.
The code containing part of the bios also has different parts with some different characteristics. Let me begin with some similarities though. One characteristic shared in common is that none of this area is the type memory mentioned above, that requires power to preserve its contents. The code in this portion of the bios remains in place regardless of whether there is power or not. You can even pull the bios chip out and the code will remain. All of the code portion is also pre-programmed at the factory, and remains static from boot to boot. Now for some differences... There is part of this portion that can be re-programmed/changed, and there is a part that cannot. The changeable portion is the part that one can update by flashing the bios. Flashing re-programs this portion of the bios, puts (largely) new code in it. Other people have discussed flashing the bios (why and why not), so I won't. But if one does flash their bios, this is the portion they are (largely) altering. I will also note (reiterate) in passing that this is also the portion/area of the bios that bios-infecting viruses alter/effect. They do their own little flash number on things here. Now to get back on track... There is another part of this portion of the bios that can't be changed, can't be flashed (and can't be infected). Bioses from a few years back didn't have this portion, but all current ones do. It is protected, inaccessible except in a read-only manner. It is programmed at the factory and that's that (Actually/technically, on some motherboards the boot block can be changed. There is a jumper that is used to determine whether the boot block is protected or not.). It is a very small portion (not that the whole bios isn't small), but can be a very important one. It has a very specific purpose: to assist in recovery, reinstitution, of viable, functioning bios code should the code in the flashable portion become corrupt or inoperable. It most frequently comes (is brought) in to play if a bios flash gets screwed up or a "bad" flash is introduced. It is called the "boot block". There are subtle differences in how exactly the boot block works, how the code in it is invoked, the procedures that need to be followed between different vendor bioses (and versions). One's owner's manual will describe what needs to be done. I'll leave a detailed description of the boot block to "outside reading". Like I said though, it is single purposed and very simply. But it can really save ones buns if they mess up a flash.
I mentioned "dual-bioses" earlier. I might as well bring it up here again briefly because it ties in to some of the above. Some motherboards today now have dual bioses. What this really means is that they have redundant bioses. They don't work (aren't in operation) at the same time. One is the "working" bios, the bios in use. The other is a backup. These are even more convenient, easier to use, in bios corruption/failure situations than boards with just boot blocks. They also can come in handy when experimenting with certain changes. Like I said, they are fully functional, fully redundant bioses. So even if one bios chip dies, you still have a bios. Now I'm not advising one get a board with one of these, or saying one needs a board with one of these. I'm simply pointing out that they are there and mentioning their virtues.
I want to throw out some of my thoughts on some of the different parts of the code portion of the bios from a functional/operational standpoint. I won't talk about all the parts. I just want to mention a few that I think are noteworthy for some reason.
1) The POST (Power On Self-Test) program. This is the portion of code that only get invokes during a cold boot, and is the first set of code invoked during such a boot. It is basically responsible for doing some preliminary and very rudimentary diagnosis of the basic function of some of the hardware. It is this POST code that produces the "beep codes" that have been mentioned, and that occur when there are errors. The reason beeps are used is because most of the hardware as not been initialized yet, in particular the video hardware.
2) Bios Setup. The point I want to make here relates to the fact that different bios implementations offer varying levels of control and expose different settings. Some hide/restrict a lot of things. This is most notably the case with "proprietary" boards and bioses. Other bioses allow the user to access and change things that can useful/valuable from a performance tweaking standpoint.
3) SoftMenus. This is really a sub-part of the Bios Setup. Not all bioses have this. It is usually offered on motherboards where there are no jumpers ("Jumperless design") for settings such things as bus speed, processor multiplier, etc. Some "jumpered" boards also offer it. If present its function is to provide the place where the characteristics and settings related to the CPU can be entered/altered. SoftMenu setup can provide greater control over processor configuration, and can be of particular interest to overclockers.
4) SCSI and RAID Setup. Boards with onboard SCSI or RAID controllers often/generally have a setup devoted to the configuration of these controllers.
5) Plug and Play. This has already been discussed by others. It is beyond the scope of these threads to go too far in to PnP, that can be left to "outside reading". But PnP is an integral part of system/hardware setup and configuration today. It is worth gaining a basic understanding of. The bios is a key player in the PnP process. But it should be noted that it is not the only player. The chipset, the hardware/devices and the operating system all are involved. And sometimes they don't all play well together. And some times it is up to the user to make them play together. Not all PnP problems are the fault or fixed through the bios. It is important from a configuration and diagnostic standpoint to have a feel for the rolls of the various pieces of the pie. To know what settings effect (or can effect) PnP operations. To know how to defeat or manipulate PnP. Some of these are in the bios, some are not.
6) Advanced Power Management and Advanced Configuration And Power Interface. I only want to mention these briefly. I mention them together because they are related. The bios plays a key role when it comes to these. But (as with things like PnP) it isn't the only player. APM and ACPI have evolved quite a bit, but are by no means perfect. There are frequently problems related to these. For this reason it is worthwhile be familiar with the settings (and their meanings) related to manipulation of APM and ACPI.
Others have mentioned some of the processing that takes place during the boot up process, some of the functions performed by the bios code. And there are plenty of web sites offering descriptions as well. So I won't go through it in any great detail. But I do advise people to become familiar with the steps carried out during a boot. Both a "cold boot" (as in when you first turn on the power switch or hit the reset button) and a "warm boot" (as in when you do a ctrl-alt-del). With a warm boot the sequence is abbreviated. Not all steps are gone through, not all things are refreshed and/or reinitialized. So it can be important to understand the differences between cold and warm booting.
I'd like to clarify a couple things based on some things in (or that I thought were in) some earlier posts. The bios chip contains code and data, that's it. It has no execution or processing capabilities. The bios is dependent on the CPU in the system to execute the code in it. The bios was referred to as the "kickstarter" of the system. And that's basically a fair statement, in a sense. Its code is the first real code that gets executed, the functions performed by this code are critical to getting the system off and running. However, I think it's worth noting that the CPU is and must be active before (and in order for) the bios code can do its thing. Not to go in to great detail, but... When the system is first powered on there is a communication between the motherboard and the power supply to establish there is proper power to (certain) things. The motherboard chipset then sends a signal to the CPU essentially saying "go to work". The processor then starts executing code at a pre-set, pre-determined, memory location, which happens to be in the bios code area. So what this means is that if there is a problem with the CPU (or anything that could effect it's operation initially) things will stop before the bios (or much else) is even in the picture. If one sees indications that the bios code is executing, then you at least know the CPU was functioning. Now it can be rendered non-functional by some bios setting when it kicks in, but… Also, the CPU never relinquishes control to the bios, so the bios never returns (or turns over) control to the CPU. I don't mean to nit-pick. I just wanted to make sure this was clear, as I think it has importance from an overall understanding and a diagnostic standpoint.
Another thing I'll bring up here is something I mentioned before. Namely that the system bios is not (generally/frequently) the only code, only bios code, executed during system boot up and initialization. All the functions to carry out the necessary actions/tasks are not within the bios' capability to provide. It therefore hands things off to other code/bioses. As previously mentioned, the video card/adapter is a good example (one of the most visible as well). Other's can come in to play as well. So I just wanted to reiterate that it is not only the bios that is executing from the time your system starts booting until you see (say) the "Starting Windows" messages.
It might be easy to conclude the way it is often referred to that the BIOS is some "all knowing, all powerful" thing. That it has some ultimate knowledge and control over all that goes on in a PC, or at least from a hardware standpoint. This is not the case. It is not my intention to diminish the importance of the bios in saying this. The bios is indeed very important. It is critical for certain functions, certain aspects of PC operation. But the truth is that it has (by design) a somewhat limited role, and is not terribly sophisticated. It only does (is responsible for) certain (again, as its name implies) basic things. The bios is an integral tie/interface to some of the hardware. But there are a number of components/hardware in a PC the bios knows nothing about, doesn't "talk to" (communicate with) or control, doesn't know how to talk to or control. In some cases there may be some level of knowledge, communication or control, but it's very rudimentary. In some cases the bios can or must be "gone through" to communicate with certain hardware, in other cases it can and is (frequently) completely bypassed. And there are a lot of operations that go on in a PC that the (system) bios has nothing to do with. These are handled by other hardware, other bioses, other software. The examples are too numerous and it would take to long to go in to them here, so I won't. My reason is bring this out is simply to make people aware that the bios is not in the loop in the case of all hardware issues. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. This can be worth knowing when troubleshooting.
Related to the above, and just so people are clear... The code in the bios is not just "in the loop" during boot up (initialization). Some portions of the code are (may) only run at this point. But there are other portions of the bios that are or may be used throughout the time a PC is powered on an in use. Some portions are always used beyond boot up, some are used sometimes or optionally. Again, something worth noting from a troubshooting standpoint.
I referred to the bios above as simple, basic, unsophisticated. It is. And there's a reason I point this out, and a reason to should be kept in mind. Namely, because it is this way (simple, etc) it means it does exactly what it's told, relies on exactly what it's told and "sees", isn't equipped to figure a lot out, isn't very good or communicative when it comes to handling problems. Call it dumb if you want. But the point is that when setting parameters or providing information to the bios, when hooking/setting up hardware that the bios does deal with, one should be somewhat careful, mindful, deliberate. The bios (99% of the time) is going to accept what you give/tell it and go on its merry way (or try to). And if there's a problem, it's not going to correct it, try and figure out what you meant or what should be. If a problem is not too severe, not fatal, it may just go on and function (with the incorrect setting/info/setup). If it is severe enough, the bios may simply just bring everything to a grinding halt, perhaps (likely) throwing out some very general, non-specific, non-descriptive error message. Or it may resort to its ultimate cop-out and restart (reboot). No, the bios isn't very smart. That means we have to be when dealing with it.
Ok, let me finish up by addressing a few quick questions/issues that have come up. I'll resort to list format in dealing with them.
1) Shadowing. I want to avoid much detail here, but... System bioses offer options to shadow the system bios (itself), the video bios, bioses of other adapter cards (I'll simply/quickly note that adapter card shadowing relates to the address ranges like C000-C800, D000-DFFF and such that you see referred to in bios setup). As was established earlier: bioses are (primarily) code, this code occupies memory, and this memory is contained on a chip. This is true with the system bios, and other bioses as well. From a performance standpoint we always strive to have any code/data that may be accessed in the fastest accessible memory possible. This speed of access is effected by two things: the type/speed of memory itself, and the length and speed of the path that must be traveled to get at the memory. We generally only think of memory access speed when it comes RAM and other programs/data occupying it. But the bios is code/data too. The idea behind shadowing is that code/data (or a portion of it) is moved from the applicable bios chip to system RAM, then any references to it will occur there. Why? Because the hope is that access will be faster if it is in system RAM. But the case happens to be that it isn't always faster. In any given situation shadowing can actually result in the bios being moved in to slower memory. It depends on the card. Memory used on video cards, and access to it, can be a classic example where shadowing can result in slower performance. So one does not always want to shadow, shadow everything. Performance may decrease. There's a couple other reasons why not to shadow. In some cases because of the read/write nature of memory it can actually cause problems (errors, corruption,) when shadowing is done. In other cases it just flat out isn't worth it to shadow. There can be no real benefit. Not because moving things to system ram won't provide faster access. But because the stuff being shadowed is not accessed enough for it to matter (matter much). Shadowing the system bios often falls in to this category.
2) PnP OS. As I mentioned earlier, the PnP scheme involves a cooperative effort between the bios, the hardware and the OS. Generally it is best to set (enable) the option in bios setup for PnP OS Installed when/if the OS being used is PnP capable. This provides for a more consistent operation and exchange of information between the Bios and OS. But it not absolutely necessary for this to be enabled (when the OS is PnP capable). In fact, ironically, disabling this can often enable problems, resource assignments and conflicts within the OS to be dealt with, resolved, easier. When you enable this setting what you are really doing is shifting the burden (or most of it) in terms of PnP detection and setup to the operating system (and away from the bios). In dual (or more) boot situations where any non-PnP capable OS is used it is best to disable the setting. And in some situations where dos is in the loop, or a device is used in dos (eg. a soundcard), it can be best/required to disable this setting as well.
3) Default Settings. As others have said... When first bringing up a new system it is best to take the default settings, at least initially. Using the bios-provided Optimal settings can be fine once things are running. It can be hard to argue against why one should not always choose the optimal settings. But the fact is that they are always best for all systems. It depends on the components, other configuration items. And in many cases they produce no noticeable gain in performance (for the average system.user). When it comes to customizing individual settings… Sometimes it's necessary/desirable. But like many other things, if you don't understand exactly what they are and what they do then don't mess with them. It isn't worth it.
Alright, I don't know if I said what I wanted to, said what I meant to, said what anyone cares about. I don't know if I'm caught up or not. But I'm burned out, as I 'm sure the crowd here is as well. So I'll stop for now. Time to regroup, then come back. Until later...
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[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 07-01-2001).]
Hello Virtual Knights,
The rest of the galaxy just wanted to say WOW!
I see it was unanswered, and got curious about it,
What does plug and play OS setting do?
Thanks.
[edit]
Ouch, R2D2 just prodded me. Tells me DrMDJ explained it rather well. Better fetch Yoda, and translate it to bot of us, can you R2?
OUCH, R2, there's no need to do th.. OUCH!
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Ben
[This message has been edited by OBe Wan Kenobi (edited 07-01-2001).]
Good Morning All, Happy July 1, 2001, half a year is gone, the equinox and has come and gone, after reading the last few posts my eyes are gone, and after this post I will be gone on honey do's for a bit. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
My gosh, it's getting scary around here, I understood what ya'll wrote. I am impressed by the efforts of all. The writing is excellent and very well balanced. Of those reading the thread, many of them will have made a quantum leap in their knowledge because of your efforts.
After CPUs and Mobos I was wondering which component on the Mobo we should start with and a couple of you suggested BIOS. How right you were. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Ok, a question for you readers ('cause I don't know the what the next question I'm going to ask on Bios yet.) Are we covering what you need to work with your computer?
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GG1,
Ah, the ole honey dos. Well enjoy them. One thing about those. You can stop them if you respond with enough honey nos. Trouble is a lot of other honey stuff also stops. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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DrMDJ, You are so right. So right..... LM*OROTF.
Either everyone is taking a nap or still assimilating the last few posts. One of the things I really didn't realize was the "other bioses" that are in a computer. A lot of food for thought here.
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Digesting the disertations, that is what is going on.
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SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
Just reread the last post that DrMDJ wrote on BIOS. I brought the following forward for just one reason. Digest this and the various relationships discuused and you will be able to improve your troubleshooting of your computer. I would suggest copy and past this to your "Computer Tips" folder in My Documents.
I wish to reiterate something once again. If you have a question on any part of the material presented do ask for clarification. We work at all levels in these threads and has said before this is important to do this.
We not only want to help you in your understanding but challenge you as well. As each and everyone of us gain in knowledge we can review one of the posts on these threads on a particular subject and understand even more that we did the first few times we read it.
"I'd like to clarify a couple things based on some things in (or that I thought were in) some earlier posts. The bios chip contains code and data, that's it. It has no execution or processing capabilities. The bios is dependent on the CPU in the system to execute the code in it. The bios was referred to as the "kickstarter" of the system. And that's basically a fair statement, in a sense. Its code is the first real code that gets executed, the functions performed by this code are critical to getting the system off and running. However, I think it's worth noting that the CPU is and must be active before (and in order for) the bios code can do its thing. Not to go in to great detail, but... When the system is first powered on there is a communication between the motherboard and the power supply to establish there is proper power to (certain) things. The motherboard chipset then sends a signal to the CPU essentially saying "go to work". The processor then starts executing code at a pre-set, pre-determined, memory location, which happens to be in the bios code area. So what this means is that if there is a problem with the CPU (or anything that could effect it's operation initially) things will stop before the bios (or much else) is even in the picture. If one sees indications that the bios code is executing, then you at least know the CPU was functioning. Now it can be rendered non-functional by some bios setting when it kicks in, but… Also, the CPU never relinquishes control to the bios, so the bios never returns (or turns over) control to the CPU. I don't mean to nit-pick. I just wanted to make sure this was clear, as I think it has importance from an overall understanding and a diagnostic standpoint.
Another thing I'll bring up here is something I mentioned before. Namely that the system bios is not (generally/frequently) the only code, only bios code, executed during system boot up and initialization. All the functions to carry out the necessary actions/tasks are not within the bios' capability to provide. It therefore hands things off to other code/bioses. As previously mentioned, the video card/adapter is a good example (one of the most visible as well). Other's can come in to play as well. So I just wanted to reiterate that it is not only the bios that is executing from the time your system starts booting until you see (say) the "Starting Windows" messages.
It might be easy to conclude the way it is often referred to that the BIOS is some "all knowing, all powerful" thing. That it has some ultimate knowledge and control over all that goes on in a PC, or at least from a hardware standpoint. This is not the case. It is not my intention to diminish the importance of the bios in saying this. The bios is indeed very important. It is critical for certain functions, certain aspects of PC operation. But the truth is that it has (by design) a somewhat limited role, and is not terribly sophisticated. It only does (is responsible for) certain (again, as its name implies) basic things. The bios is an integral tie/interface to some of the hardware. But there are a number of components/hardware in a PC the bios knows nothing about, doesn't "talk to" (communicate with) or control, doesn't know how to talk to or control. In some cases there may be some level of knowledge, communication or control, but it's very rudimentary. In some cases the bios can or must be "gone through" to communicate with certain hardware, in other cases it can and is (frequently) completely bypassed. And there are a lot of operations that go on in a PC that the (system) bios has nothing to do with. These are handled by other hardware, other bioses, other software. The examples are too numerous and it would take to long to go in to them here, so I won't. My reason is bring this out is simply to make people aware that the bios is not in the loop in the case of all hardware issues. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. This can be worth knowing when troubleshooting.
Related to the above, and just so people are clear... The code in the bios is not just "in the loop" during boot up (initialization). Some portions of the code are (may) only run at this point. But there are other portions of the bios that are or may be used throughout the time a PC is powered on an in use. Some portions are always used beyond boot up, some are used sometimes or optionally. Again, something worth noting from a troubshooting standpoint.
I referred to the bios above as simple, basic, unsophisticated. It is. And there's a reason I point this out, and a reason to should be kept in mind. Namely, because it is this way (simple, etc) it means it does exactly what it's told, relies on exactly what it's told and "sees", isn't equipped to figure a lot out, isn't very good or communicative when it comes to handling problems. Call it dumb if you want. But the point is that when setting parameters or providing information to the bios, when hooking/setting up hardware that the bios does deal with, one should be somewhat careful, mindful, deliberate. The bios (99% of the time) is going to accept what you give/tell it and go on its merry way (or try to). And if there's a problem, it's not going to correct it, try and figure out what you meant or what should be. If a problem is not too severe, not fatal, it may just go on and function (with the incorrect setting/info/setup). If it is severe enough, the bios may simply just bring everything to a grinding halt, perhaps (likely) throwing out some very general, non-specific, non-descriptive error message. Or it may resort to its ultimate cop-out and restart (reboot). No, the bios isn't very smart. That means we have to be when dealing with it."
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[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 07-01-2001).]
I will edit this thing. Sorry for the Interuption......LOL
[This message has been edited by Dodge (edited 07-01-2001).]
Dodge, you sure interrupted my "asimilating" I was in the middle of. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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I'm having trouble assimilating that interruption.... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Found this info on flash chips that will add and expand what we have already.
"Flash chips are a relatively new type of non-volatile memory chip that can be erased and reprogrammed without being removed from the system they are used in. Flash chips are sometimes referred to as flash ROMs or flash EEPROMs (Electrically Eraseable Programable Read Only Memory). While this may be acceptable usage, technically flash memory is a distinct and different type of technology.
Flash chips began to be used on PC motherboards in the early-to-mid 1990's to store the system ROM BIOS. This allows motherboard manufacturers to make BIOS updates available electronically (such as through FTP sites, web sites, and BBSs or on diskette), instead of requiring chips to be removed and replaced.
There are many types, packages, and capacities of flash chips made by various manufacturers. The ones that we have seen most commonly used on motherboards are 32-pin PLCC chips, specifically the Intel N28F001BXT. This chip is about 5/8" by 1/2" in size.
A functionally equivalent chip in a DIP package, the Intel P28F001BXT, is also commonly used on PC motherboards.
The Intel N28F001BXT chip has a capacity of 128KB (1 megabit). It is divided into several sections or "blocks". The Main Block is 112KB, the Boot Block is 8KB, and two Parameter Blocks are 4KB each. Programming voltage of 12 volts must be enabled in order to erase the chip, which must be done before it can be programmed.
The boot block is a protected area that is not erased when the main blocks of the chip are reprogrammed in the system. The boot block normally contains special code known as "boot block code" that can be activated to restore a BIOS into the chip if the BIOS code has become corrupt or if the BIOS has been erased or if the chip has been accidentally reprogrammed with the wrong BIOS code.
Here is a diagram of the Intel N28F001BXT:
System address: _______________
FFFFF | | 8KB Boot Block
|______________ |
|______________ | 4KB Parameter Block
|_______________| 4KB Parameter Block
FBFFF | |
| |
| |
| 48KB |
| |
F0000 | _________ |
EFFFF | | 112KB Main Block
| |
| |
| |
| 64KB |
| |
| |
| |
| |
E0000 |_______________|
On many systems, address line A16 to the flash chip is inverted, which causes the chip to be addressed as if the top and bottom halves are interchanged as is shown below:
Non-inverted Inverted
_______________ _______________
FFFFF | |8K Boot Blk FFFFF | |
|______________ | | |
|______________ |4K Parm Blk | |
|_______________|4K Parm Blk | |
| | | | 64K BIOS
| |48K BIOS | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
F0000 |_______________| F0000 |______________|
EFFFF | | EFFFF | | 8K Boot Blk
| | |______________|
| | |______________| 4K Parm Blk
| | |______________| 4K Parm Blk
| |64K BIOS | |
| | | |
| | | | 48K BIOS
| | | |
| | | |
E0000 |_______________| E0000 |______________|
When a PC is powered on, the 80x86 CPU loads its CS:IP registers with F000:FFF0, which tells it where to go from there. Normally, the next step is to copy the BIOS code into RAM (known as shadowing). On most newer PCs, the system ROM BIOS is always shadowed. It is much faster to access the BIOS from RAM than to access it from a ROM chip or flash chip. Also on systems with flash BIOSes, the BIOS code may not be contiguous in the flash chip and may also be compressed, so that it is not ready to do its job until it has been copied to RAM.
The boot block code can be implemented in various ways. In the inverted model above, the two halves of the chip can be reversed with a jumper or switch on the motherboard so that the boot block code appears at the top and will load into memory and execute instead of the system BIOS. Normally the boot block code consists of a small program that will erase the flash chip and reprogram it with code on a diskette in drive A:.
On some systems the flash chip is not ever inverted and the boot block code which appears at the top of the chip will run on every boot and will check to see if the BIOS is corrupt or missing. If the BIOS is OK, the boot block code jumps to the appropriate location to let the BIOS take over. If the boot block code finds that the BIOS is not functional, it should then attempt to reprogram the chip using the contents of a diskette in drive A:.
Some boot block code will program a chip with whatever happens to be on a diskette. Many computer users accidentally reprogram their flash chips with DOS boot disks and various other diskettes. The diskette that is used for the boot block recovery procedure (known as a BIOS recovery disk) must be in a particular format, which varies from system to system. Some recovery disks use a non-DOS format, so that they may not be accessible under DOS or Windows. Some boot block programs will verify that a diskette is a valid recovery disk before proceeding. Some boot block programs will turn control over to a program on the recovery disk.
Flash chips can go bad just as any other type of chip can. Normally flash chips are socketted, in which case they can be easily replaced, but on many motherboards (specifically Intel motherboards) they are soldered on, making replacement difficult and impractical. Some people are concerned about the fact that flash chips can be written to a limited number of times. The standard flash chip used on PCs can be written to 100,000 times, so this really is not a reason for concern. A flash chip can be defective in such a way that it may function just fine with the system's BIOS code being read from it on every boot but will not allow erase or new code to be programmed into it. If it cannot be erased then it cannot be reprogrammed. Sometimes a defective flash chip will erase but cannot be reprogrammed.
Most motherboard manuals and PC system manuals do not adequately (or even at all) address the issues of BIOS updates and BIOS recovery disks. These issues are the responsibility of the motherboard manufacturer and/or system vendor. Many computer technicians are not familiar with issues concerning flash BIOSes and will assume that a motherboard is dead and must be replaced when it really just needs to have a BIOS flashed in with a recovery disk. Many system vendors are not equipped to deal with these issues. It may sometimes be useful to consult with the manufacturer of the motherboard if the system vendor is unable to help. Micro Firmware is able to provide assistance only on motherboards for which we have developed BIOS upgrades. We make BIOS recovery disks for these motherboards available to anyone who needs them through our BBS and FTP site. Note that companies such as AMI, Award, and Phoenix, who license BIOS source code to manufacturers, are not able to provide any assistance to end users as they did not write the BIOS as actually implemented on a particular system.
We have Intel N28F001BXT flash chips available for $19.95 plus shipping. Note that the chip will not be of any use unless code has been programmed into it.
It is very easy to damage a PLCC flash chip or its socket when removing or replacing the chip. There should be notches on two diagonally opposite corners of the socket. While it is possible to use various items such as a strong paperclip to remove the chip, it is advisable to use the correct tool, a PLCC chip extractor, to avoid damaging the socket or the chip. It is also possible to insert a flash chip into the socket backwards. This will normally result in the chip being destroyed when the system is powered on.
Here are some part numbers and sources for PLCC extractors:
AMP 821903-1
OK Industries EX-5
Radio Shack - #276-2101
The AMP and the OK tools are available from Digikey at 800-344-4539
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detailed information on flash memory can be found in a 2-volume set of books from Intel titled "Flash Memory: Volume 1" and "Flash Memory: Volume 2". These books are published by McGraw Hill, whose phone number is 800-722-4726.
Much of the information contained in these books is also available on Intel's web site at this URL:
http://developer.intel.com/design/flash/ "
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God help me.
Please God, help me.
Please help me understand?
I told Greengoose1 I sometimes wish someone get the foot out of my mouth, and that it should be clear what I am writing ain't gospel.
There simply is no way anyone can cover it all.
But lordy, there is such nice interaction here, and it gets to a point where just about everything gets a mention.
Having said that, most of what is being said here is rather general information, NOT pertaining to a particular piece of hardware.
It should therefore also be clear an end user has to find the info relating to the kit in use, and these general tips can help. One gets to know what to look at/for while searching for a solution, and what to watch out for/beware of.
One also gets the impression you cannot ever take anything presented here at face value.
That's basically true, and you shouldn't.
Most of the things are Generally true, though.
And yet there are a few contradicting things found here, and they are true.
VIEW A is correct for machine A
and view B is correct for machine B.
Therefore, when you see contradicting views, don't despair.
Going over this topic and assimilating the things said here, one gains an insight.
It will one day spark you to find a solution to a problem, and armed with a general understanding of what to look for, you will find more relevant information on the kit you have.
That's after you got the manual, and read the manual and the online help pertaining to your kit.
Whatever you find on the CDROM that came with your kit, it usually has some in depth information as well, and it's nearby. The WWW is your next great resource, it's where you found VDr, of course. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Please try avoid doing things you cannot undo.
And take notes.
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There's Always "something entirely different"
Kind regards, Jaak.
[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 07-02-2001).]
yes, it makes a difference.Quote:
Originally posted by Jynne62:
Hi, Just a question ... if the Bios is normally in a ROM chip and it starts up first why would it matter if it was copied to RAM each time the computer is booted? RAM is faster but once it is booted (with the ROM chip) isn't that all that is needed, or is the bios actually accessed over and over during the time the computer is on?
I hope this makes sense. Trying to understand this, is like reading Greek.
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Thanks
BIOS is Basic In Out, and it contains the instruction set that makes the components on the motherboard interact.
When you load it into RAM, the instructions for this interaction get loaded in (lets say) PC133 @ 133Mhz memory, and access to it is FAST.
when it is not shadowed, the instruction set is located in ROM @4.7Mhz
exerpt from http://www.firmware.com/support/bios/shadow.htm.
todays PC133 RAM runs at about 5 nano, and DDR at less than 3 nano.Quote:
Shadowing refers to the technique of copying BIOS code from slow ROM chips into faster RAM chips during boot-up so that any access to BIOS routines will be faster. DOS and other operating systems may access BIOS routines frequently. System performance is greatly improved if the BIOS is accessed from RAM rather than from a slower ROM chip.
A PC system's ROM BIOS is stored in a ROM chip on the motherboard. On an older motherboard, the BIOS will reside in one, two or four EPROM chips. On a newer motherboard, the BIOS will probably be kept in a flash chip. In either case, the chip is accessed 8 bits at a time, while RAM on a 486 or 386DX system is accessed 32 bits at a time. Also the access time of ROM chips is slower - 150ns to 200ns compared to 60ns or 70ns for RAM.
that's at least 4*30 or 120 times faster...
I have a Question.
What speed is the Video BIOS nowadays?
(let's say on an AGPx4 card)
found something, but it still don't fully answer it http://www.monitorworld.com/faq_pages/q43_page.html
exerpt>>
------------------Quote:
Should I have BIOS shadowing on?
The code which tells the computer how to access the video card is stored on the video card itself in a ROM (Read Only Memory) chip. When the computer wants to access the video card, it uses the video BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) routines on the ROM chip(s). The only real problem with this is that ROM chips run more slowly that traditional DRAM which is used for main system RAM. As a result, most (if not all) modern BIOS setup utilities (sometimes referred to as CMOS) allow the video BIOS to be copied to a section of main system DRAM (this is the shadowing). This has the benefit of speeding up video operations between the CPU and video card because the video BIOS 'instructions' can be read more quickly from the shadow RAM, and the disadvantage of using a relatively small block of upper memory (the chunk of memory is located above 640k and below 1 Meg).
Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 07-02-2001).]
Oh my! https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ So much for the "intro" course. Who's gonna be the first to post a machine code listing of their bios? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Good Morning All, DrMDJ since you had time to ask the question, maybe you could do it since the rest of us are still digesting and assimilating what has been presented. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Bistro had it right when way back he said something like "when we get into BIOS...."
It would seem we went from the simple to complex but I don't believe it is that difficult but rather a lot to the subject.
So with that in mind maybe we could come up with a simple checklist or troubleshooting procedure that a person can use when a problem comes up. Then if the problem was in BIOS this info could then be utilized. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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Repeating and expanding on what I said earlier...
When it comes to shadowing the system bios the issue is not one of whether the system RAM in today's pcs is faster (the access to it is faster) than the memory on the bios chip. The issue is that with today's systems, software and operating systems, after the initial boot process has completed and execution of the OS has started, the bios code is not generally used all that much (or enough to matter). As a result, while there might have been a potential performance gain by having the bios routines in RAM, the gain is generally lost or greatly diminished by the fact that the routines are just not used (or used that much).
Yes, BIOS does stand for the "Basic Input/Output System". But the interpretation of "Basic" as meaning that the bios is at the core (root) of everything or in the loop on everything, or that all roads go through the bios is not correct. It used to be much more the case. But as technology, hardware and software has evolved the (system) bios' role has been greatly diminished (after some of the initial boot processing). Many dealings, many functions that the bios used to be used for (used to needed for) now are handled by other bioses, other firmware and software. Many functions/interactions have to be handled elsewhere because the bios routines aren't equipped to do it or aren't equipped to fully do it (eg. taking advantage of certain hardware features). And Many functions/interactions are handled elsewhere because the bios routines are not efficient, don't (and can't) provide the best performance.
Yes, the bios has evolved (and subsequently grown in size) over time. But it was realized a long time ago that the bios could not possibly be (or continue to be) the "core" of everything, "God" of the PC. When the number of, types of and differences in hardware/devices were fewer, when hardware/devices were simpler, when software (including OSes) were simpler, it was one thing. But given what was, is and will happen in PC technology, to have the bios be god is and would be impractical (and unnecessary). It would require much more code, much more logic, much more sophistication, etc, etc. To have the bios be god is also inefficient. Not just from a size standpoint. It is inefficient from a design standpoint, from a performance standpoint. So with today's PCs, the bios is not god. The bios provides, does certain things. Then other hardware and software (which I use as a general term representing any type of code) do the rest, or do it their way.
I won't belabor the point much more. But I assure you that many, many things are not handled by the bios. As two quick examples... With today's video cards and Windows it is common for video operations to bypass the system bios. And Windows commonly bypasses the bios on disk operations as well. The list goes on. The bios is still very important. It is still in the loop on certain things, or can be. But for the most part, it's most significant role, most significant involvement is (probably) at the time the system is booting when it comes to many of its routines. There was a time when bios was king, even dictator. But now it in many ways it is simply a member of congress. Perhaps a chairperson of a committee, but...
It is for the above reasons that I say that shadowing or not shadowing the system bios on today's systems, running certain operating systems like (say) Windows, using much of the software that is used, is frequently not terribly significant. Now, there is no harm in shadowing it. And people are welcome to experiment to see if it matters on their system.
As for video bios shadowing…
Again, with today's systems and video cards is often of no value to shadow their bioses. And frequently the benefit can be a negative one. Access to the bios code is often faster on these cards than in ram. Furthermore, it is also not uncommon for the OS or drivers to bypass the bios and access the card hardware directly (so it doesn't matter where the bios is). Like with the system bios though, there's little harm is experimenting to see if shadowing makes a difference for you.
Shadowing (in general) is more of a throw-back to days gone by. When hardware and OSes were different.
By the way, bioses generally also offer the option of caching the system and video bioses. The effect of this is to enable the system's (processor's) L2 cache to be used to cache the code of these respective bioses. It should be first noted that in order for this caching to be used one must also have enabled shadowing. Now this being said, I personally advise not enabling either of these. Largely for the same reasons I don't think shadowing is worth it. But also because I believe the L2 cache space and bandwidth is precious. Therefore I don't think it is worth it (from an overall performance standpoint) to risk cluttering up the L2 cache with this stuff. I believe there is more important data and code it should be left for.
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[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 07-02-2001).]
I was just on Capitol Hill yesterday. I can assure you that the BIOS is simply a congressional aide. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Politics enters into BIOS? https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
DrMDJ brought up an interesting point on BIOS. In the whole scheme of things concerning a pc its BIOS is a relatively small part. But when you have a problem it can help you. A front door key is a small part of a home until you misplace it. I think it is important to learn to keep the various parts of a computer in a good perspective.
Maybe this. Learn the various components of your computer and their relationships to each other. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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DrMDJ confirms what I suspected.
one of the things msinfo32 "told" me a while ago was this...
look in kernel info
you find ebios, extended Bios driver, part of vmm32.vxd w/i the compiled driver...
we also know safe mode in win9x has more DOS compatibility.
Windows memory management is on an other level than when in true DOS. (which explains why some systems keep on running in safe mode, but while running in normal windows modus show memory corruption since advanced cache handling features have kicked in...)
it's gotta have to do with the things DrMDJ points out.
Oh lordy, I'm learning a TON here.
Next thing I'll be shown what to do in a DMI editor, w/i something I heard about, but never investigated since, well, because... Ermmm, well, because I didn't. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Greengoose, what do you mean?
BIOS based Diagnostics?
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Isn't There Always "something entirely different" we'll need to reconsider?
Kind regards, Jaak.
Not sure on other cards, but with Nvidia chip cards, it's recommended to turn off the Video Shadowing in the BIOS. Well, just out of curiousity, I tried both ways and benchmarked the card. While there wasn't all that much difference really, with the vid shadowing off, there was a bit more performance benchmarks. Off it goes. As DrMDJ suggested, it won't hurt to experiment a little--just remember the settings you changed. But for the most part, any shadowing is basically a leftover from the BIOS glory days.
GG1,
Like Jaak, I too am a little unclear on the troubleshooting/diagnois question.
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Jaak,
In regard to shadowing, bypassing the bios, etc, etc, you may find this little statement from MS interesting. Though the statement is in regards to NT, it is true of other Windows OSes. I would have preferred if in the statement they had said "almost never uses the bios" (or the like), because it isn't true that all Windows OSes (or applications within them) never use bios routines. There is or can be some usage.
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[This message has been edited by DrMDJ (edited 07-02-2001).]
Jaak,
Another excerpt (from the Bios Companion) you might find interesting. At a point in talking about the bios it says it is
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active all the time your computer is switched on. In this way, software doesn't have to talk to a device directly, but can call a BIOS routine to do the job instead. However, these days the BIOS is often bypassed by 32-bit software - in fact, there are moves afoot to place its functions into the operating system, starting with Power Management (see ACPI).
For the moment, though, the BIOS will work in conjunction with the chipset, which is really what manages access to system resources such as memory, cache and the data buses...
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Maybe the question needs clarification. We have mentioned different things that you see on the monitor as a result of problems arising and in a relationship with BIOS. I was just looking for "if you have this indication do this" type of thing. Very simple and not elaborate.
For example; when you turn on the power to a computer, power is applied to the Mobo and then thru the Mobo to the Bios. At this time the BIOS does its job and if what it checks is ok you get a Windows Starting indication. To me that is a diagnostic checkpoint. You will get something or you won't. Just thought it might be something to capitalize on.
Hope this clears up the question on the question. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
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[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 07-02-2001).]
Hi DrMDJ.
it kinda figures.
I still have system BIOS shadowed, but left video BIOS shadowing off a few times, and wondered why I saw no ill effects.
(I hadn't seen that Nvidia article and my systems have TNT cards. Thanks. Their shadowy days are gone... Errm, anything on ATI 128 rage pro? )
Anyway, (most software and) Windows itself has been progressing away from direct harware calls.
Where were the days when one heard blu screeches from frustrated users because some DOS app made a direct-call to hardware, and the memory range this call was made to had been released to windows-apps by windows, causing BSOD.
(A well known cure was in system.ini > [386enh]EmmExclude=A000-C7FF One also made DOS memory manager or Quemm not release the EGA/CGA range to TSR's...)
I wish NT4 were happy with my hardware, since I have wasted a good deal of money on the package, and gave up on it because, well, because..
ME wont even boot to native DOS, far from allowing direct calls? a good deal of NT technology krept in.
Heck, one runs a few major updates on win98SE and finds win2000 stuff in the system... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
makes sense, in a way, because I haven't seen a BSOD on my machines for a while...
But I am not a gamer
I still do a bit of poking around in DOS, tho https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
I bet hard core gamers weep bitter tears when the classics won't run on their new superduper systems...
Hmmm, I write this, start thinking about this, and get to wonder if that actually pertains to BIOS shadowing...
I wish I were a micro-engineer or programmer.
I'm not. I would be lousy at it too.
Electronics? Its like Quantum Physics...
I can read about it, but you would not want me to work on it.
Doesn't mean I should not try gain an insight, though.
it Must be caused by my Flemishness!
Jaak
Not to change the topic, but you mentioned quantum physics. Read an article just last week where they've just jumped a major hurdle in building a quantum computer. Basically, there are two states in computer language (binary): OFF and ON (0 and 1). Well, seems they have developed a tiny chip that actually has 5 states now (states "in between" OFF and ON). Won't go into details, but here's what a quantum computer will be capable of: To break the current telecommunications coding with a 2ghz CPU PC running 24/7, it would take approximately a quadrillion years. A quantum computer will do it in a matter of minutes. This recent development has the telecommunications industry on its ear.... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ I WANT one of those.... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
[This message has been edited by bistro (edited 07-02-2001).]