Hey! Where's my lawyer? Surely it is a copyright violation to retitle one's manifesto without permission. Wait till my duly appointed counsel Johnny Bistro Conchran get's through with you guys! :D
If you guys want to split the thread that's fine. But could ya give me/us an idea of what types of things you'd see fallling in each category?
~ouch~ sorry Doc. I just blurted that out and next thing I know it happened. Think I saw a water fowl flitting in and out :D Don't wanna tangle with you or the guy with the big hairy mug. Bistro could wreak havoc given access to a gavel :eek:
I was just trying to think of a way to emphasize that any old/new board issues of a technical nature probably should be posted elsewhere (searches, ads, in-depth layout discussion, etc.) . Those issues are going to be a hot topic anyway till the dust settles from the upgrade.
And this one can stay focused on lack of participation for non-technical reasons: why old members have left, why new members don't stay, slow response times, personal reasons, etc. Of course, there could be cross over to some degree, as in a newbie who posts here that they've visited but didn't stay because they felt "lost". Does that make sense?
Gotcha KatMac. And personally buy in to splitting off the kind of things you mentioned too.Quote:
I was just trying to think of a way to emphasize that any old/new board issues of a technical nature probably should be posted elsewhere (searches, ads, in-depth layout discussion, etc.) . Those issues are going to be a hot topic anyway till the dust settles from the upgrade.
Yes, there is some dust to settle. Another unfortunate side-effect of the upgrade has been the distraction from things like this thread (the whole board actually). Hopefully things can get resolved soon though so we can once again move forward.
I hope so, too. Talk about timing! We'll just have to see to it that this thread doesn't turn lukewarm. What are the odds of a "breakthrough" record-breaking "number of views" thread like this one occurring at the same time as a major software upgrade ;) Although, that could well be to the benefit of your manifesto here! Things seem to be "buzzing" around here, and I suspect word is leaking out about all the hubub going on. I'm still holding out hope that some of the old regulars who migrated elsewhere but still pop in from time to time will offer up their .02. I think it could be very enlightening. I've already seen a few post on the upgrade. Ideal scenario: they'll pop in, see the board change, go straight to Feedback (where they know the upgrade is being talked about) see this thread, and we get more input. Might still be some reluctance to post what's really at the heart of their own issues. I hope every one viewing this will see that everyone's thoughts are being considered, no one is being condemned for what they feel, and that will encourage them to just tell it like it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMDJ
Yea, it would be traggic if the opportunity and momentum that has been built up here were lost. Hopefully we can get by the bump in the road that's been run in to quickly. The problem has not been that the upgrade happened in concert with something like this thread, it's that the upgrade was not as transparent and seemless as expected/projected.
As for the "hubub"... Oh I can say without question that I've seen the evidence that what's going on here is not happening in a small vdr bubble. I can tell you that many are at least aware of this thread and have an idea what it's about. Unfortunately (and it is their right) many have heretofore decided to not participate. And no doubt reasons like fear, apathy, not feeling like anything will come it, may be even just being too fed up come in to play. Only each individual knows for sure. We just need to forge ahead though.
15 pages ago (by my screen res, anyway :)), I voiced my concern about being treated badly by a mod. Other than a few "Hi, zipulrich" comments, it hasn't been addressed at all. That's one of the reasons I tend to stay away from VDr. lately.
Glad this thread's still going, though. :)
I do not know the circumstances but am sorry it happened and you had a bad experience. And will pass this on.
Thanks, GG (I understood the 'Bye', too ;) ). As far as it being passed on, I dunno...I'm certainly not looking for an apology, as that wouldn't serve any constructive purpose. I simply offered it up as something that might be addressed, either here or privately. I have no problems with VDr., whether members or staff - hard to find a better group of folks on the Internet today.
zipulrich, should anything like that ever occur again, please bring it to Big John's attention or mine. We need to know about anything like that occurring here. Thanks.
zipulrich, I went back and reread your post. You're right, we fumbled the ball :( Sorry 'bout that. Doesn't do much good to post our issues only to have them appear to be 'skimmed over'. You shouldn't have had to bring it up twice. And I commend you for pointing it out just now. Early on in this thread I reluctantly aired some issues similar to yours (the petty arguing and what I perceived as unfounded trouble-making). And my post, much to my relief, was received with gratitude and reassurances that particular issue and certain problem members have been dealt with accordingly. Since it was difficult for me to post what I felt, had my comments gone unacknowledged, in all liklihood I would have given up on this thread. Glad you didn't give up ;)
I was going to also question how we address the issue when a member>mod situation comes up (as it well could be posted here again). I'm relieved to see that GG1 and Joe have addressed that, and are ready and willing to have those type issues brought to their attention so it can be managed. That will really help the cause here, IMHO. ;)
If we are already talking about this issue, I brought it up on the very first page (does anyone remember those days?) and it was largely ignored by everyone. The only Mod that has spoken about other mods was Murf where he said something about the mods not needing to be so heavy handed. I would quote him, but thats a lot of pages to go through, and my Baby is crying. :eek:
With a thread this large and as many members posting, it is indeed hard to keep on top of everything. There are emotions, feelings, opinions, and suggestions coming in at a rather fast pace. We are covering a huge subject that concerns member participation. We are having the biggest exchange of member's thoughts I have ever seen since I came to this site.
Therefore should we members miss something it should be brought up again by the member posting the original thought as zipulrich and usil did today.
I believe what we are doing is working and moving forward. (So far I estimate three volumes of some length could be writtenfrom this material. :D :D )
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG JOHN
Just a reminder that if anyone has an issue with another member they can take the matter to any member of the Mod team, and any issues with a moderator can be taken to Big John.
Finally found that quote:
I think that it is very noble of Murf to make this statement. I have all the respect for someone who can give self-criticism.Quote:
Posted by Murf
1. Moderators must get more Pro-Active in trying to settle disputes, rudeness, and controlling the board, rather then bringing down the hammer too quickly. - This has already been discussed, amongst ourselves at length.
I would like to add my 2 cents if I may.First of all I like the new look of VDR.I was a member of a forum before I found you guys and the reasonn I left them was because no one would answer my post.I am so greatful to Photolady for telling me about this forum.This is the only one I come to and it is the best in my book.
I think what needs to be understood on both ends is that sometimes computer problems can be very fustrating for the mods to try and figure out and the members to try and deal with it.Now I know that there are just some rude people out there and I know it can be hard but the people who help solve out problems(mods?) are doing this for free so I feel members need to take that into consideration.I have had not had a problem with rudeness here.
It is kinda hard to figure out where you should post.For instance,I am running Windows98SE and have a picture(digital camera) question,so where do I put it??
I bet there are alot of people out there that have their own websites..do you have a banner people can add to their site?
Melinda, I would just like to point one thing out. While mods do work hard to maintain the site and answer questions of users, there are many many regular users (not mods) who spend countless helping others and answering their questions.
Usil,I didnt mean to offend any one.That is why I put"(mods?) sorry
Melinda, no offense taken :)
I too would like to say sorry if it seemed like to any one that someone's issue was passed over.
But since the issue has been raised (raised again), let me just say that I am fully aware that there are concerns/issues involving the use and consistency in the use of authority. And this is something we must deal with.
500th Post, this has almost cuaght up with the what little program thread and that's been going for months.
This one is just days young.
Obviosuly goers to show that there is concern about VDr.
I guess the proliferation of threads in the feedback section since the move to VB3 also show this too.
Regarding the posts that don't get answered for whatever reason (I'm sure it's happened to everybody at some point, nu?), would it be possible (or maybe it's already happening and I just don't know) to have one person (mod) responsible for a quick skim through each day/night to see if a post has been left to sit with no conclusion? I know this might be a little complicated. But if someone could log it just informally (not on the site, but maybe just on a piece of paper at home!), and maybe ask someone whom they know to be an expert of sorts to take a look and consider trying to help.
Sometimes things do get overlooked.
Cheers
Wendy ;)
Wendy,
There are probably a few things that might be done as a stop-gap measure to handle the situation you describe. But when a site like vdr is vital and active there is no need for such measures. So what I personally hope can happen is that we can identify and do the things needed to restore the site to such a state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMDJ
I was waiting to see if anyone else had any thoughts on this, I think I almost detect a bit of side-stepping as it can be a pretty touchy issue. This is my 3rd try over the weekend trying to type this, I can't seem to get it worded right.
Let me say first and foremost I mean to step on no toes, point no fingers. We have a great group here, but based on what's been posted in this thread, apparently there have been clashes with authority here that have been hurtful enough to drive members away.
I personally agree with what Doc said above but am just not sure how it should be approached. Does anyone else have any thoughts? Should it be addressed in-depth here? (not talking about naming names, am personally dead-set against that). Should it be left "as is" and hope a member>mod issue that has driven a member away will be taken to Joe, BJ or one of the mods? I thought a lot about this, and wondered what I would do if I did enounter a problem? (I don't know how to say this so it makes sense.) I've never had an issue with a mod here, but if I did, would I feel comfortable going to one of the "authority" figures and confiding in them? From my own viewpoint, probably yes, because there are some with authority who have repeatedly presented the posture of "come in, sit down, tell me about it", an oft repeated and open invitation, so much so that I'd feel fine going to them. However, there is also what could be perceived as a subtle undercurrent of a 'knights of the round table' atmosphere, if you will. (And that pertains to any message board where there are mods.) There are table/tribal council meetings and things going on behind the scenes we 'regular' members will never be privvy to. So could that be intidimating to a member, so much so that if they feel they are taking on one mod they are, in essence, taking on the whole 'round table'. I could see that happening. So I guess what I'm trying to say is: if a member has left over a unpleasant encounter/situation with a genuine misuse of authority, how do we get it fixed? Do we leave it for the "behind the scenes" conferences or just get it out here, clear it up, and put it away? And another thought I just had. What about a newbie who feels stepped on by one in authority very early on in their membership? If they haven't been here long enough to get to know the differing personalities a bit, they won't know who to turn to in authority. In other words, they won't know that there are some in authority here who have extended the invitation to come to them with problems. But mods at any type board are essentially a parallel to a Police Dept. So a newbie who has a distasteful encounter might perceive the entire "Department" as being a brother/sisterhood that all thinks the same way, or even if they don't, they're going to stick up for each other, so the newbie's 'knee-jerk' reaction might be 'who needs this, I'm outa here...' I'm just tossing out a couple scenarios and wondering how the topic should be handled. Gosh, I hope this makes sense?...
Morning Kat, good points you brought up, I have it pretty much covered in one of my announcements, Tips for new members, if anyone has a problem with another member or a mod to feel free to bring it to me via pm or e-mail & I will see that it is taken care of. Do not want any member to feel intimidated by doing this. This is part of my job. BJ
Mornin' BJ. :)
Yes, you are one of the ones I was referring to above who makes a repeated and concerted effort to extend a 'counseling' hand. Whether or not it's part of your job description, you do a good job of presenting yourself as a mediator/counselor/friend.
And even tho it's not necessarily within the mods job description, per se, there are those of them, as mentioned above, that do extend the offer of coming to them with issues.
And yes, now I see your offer that you covered in the announcements. Sorry I didn't see it sooner, the heading about "lost passwords", etc. was a bit misleading to me. Didn't read it because having been here for awhile, lost password issues are a 'given'. On that line of thought, perhap rephrasing the title might draw more attention from newbies, and readily establish that you're available? Something like Announcements - Please Read:: Virtual Dr's. Acceptable Use Policy, Posting Tips for All Members, Lost Password Policy, etc." I toss in this suggestion for one single reason: your announcement is clearly visible at the top of each message forum. If words are included in the announcement title addressing "posting tips" and "acceptable use", those are key items relevent to new members. The title shifts the focus away from Lost Passwords and specifically summarizes all the key areas addressed in your announcement. Therefore that might make a newbie more inclined to click on it & read it. Then they'd more readily see your invitation to come to you for help if there's a problem with another member. And perhaps put the "Hello and Welcome..." post at the top, so the greeting is the first one seen? Just a thought or two ;) ~Kat
Well, Hello All !!!
It's been a while since I posted, but then I just spend the most part of the past weekend reading this thread and getting used to the new VB. ;)
Just a few pointers from my end in good old KISS fashion (keep it short and simple) :
a) Less participation of long-standing members
I used to post and reply much more in the past. Is the reduction a lack of quality on VDr as has been asked before? That's a most definite NO! In my case it's simply an issue with wedding, master's final and job related things cutting my days very short.
b) Subject of posts
The number of my own posts has certainly decreased, due to the increased knowledge I gained from VDr! Nowadays, I am usually having a very complex issue, or need a reference that can't be found via the search tool.
So, again, no quality reason in VDr.
b2) Subject of posts
My number of replies has decreased, as an increasing number of subjects I could contribute to, can be found and answered via the search function already.
c) Search engine exposure
I have and still do, refer VDr via word-of-mouth. I believe this targets more 'quality' potential members.
Looking at the previously listed stats, 90% here are more-or-less one-timers.
d) Page layout, advertisement etc.
I'll take a step back on this, as there are plenty of suggestions and changes already in progress.
However, the LINUX forum layout linked before is an EXCELLENT example of clarity and structure IMO.
TTFN,
KGG
KatMac wrote;
"....but based on what's been posted in this thread, apparently there have been clashes with authority here that have been hurtful enough to drive members away. "
And;
"Should it be addressed in-depth here?"
And;
"Does anyone else have any thoughts?"
My stand is definitely not. These type issues should be left to the administrative authorities and dealt with solely in that realm.
"Do we leave it for the "behind the scenes" conferences or just get it out here, clear it up, and put it away?"
Dragging issues of this type out into the general public can serve no purpose that I can see. It's good that the issue is known and being addressed, but it should be addressed and resolved within the management levels. I don't know who or how the issue came about, but if it happens to me I will deal directly with the individual in a civil, intelligent, and patient manner. If this doesn't work, then I will elevate it to the administration levels.
Quite frankly, I don't understand why this issue is dragging on here. There's a perceived problem. Address, assess, alleviate.
Thanks Dan, yes there have been issues in the past with certain members. These things are private & will stay that way as it is no one else's business other than the member themselves & the management of the forums. BJ
I feel that I MUST put my 2¢ in on the subject of users/mods discipline issues.
1) I understand and respect the "privacy" policy, and wouldn't want MY personal issues aired publically.
2) Some "disclosure" of the problem posting or issue or policy would be BENEFICIAL to the users as a whole.
3) I know my following recommendation would be tedious work for the administrators to implement, so I don't expect it to happen... that being said:
I would be PERFECT if the NAME of the party(ies) could be changed, but the CONTENT of the thread posted so that the rest of us could see just exactly WHAT was out of policy. There have been numerous occasions since I joined that a thread was deleted, or a member suspended, or something of the sort, and NONE of us in the user community knew what, why, how, or when the problem occured.
This would enable all of us to learn by example, to see what is NOT acceptable, and in the case of misuse of authority, would allow us to COMMENT on whether it seemed reasonable or not.
But, I have to admit, if I was a moderator, I wouldn't want to have to go through the work required to accomplish this.... I was just dreaming that such items could be moved to a separate forum where we (the users) could go look if interested.
Just my humble opinion...
Shiva, thanks for your opinion, we value all of our members opinions. We have an Acceptable Use Policy & everything that that we will not tolerate is outlined in there. The only problem is getting everyone to read it. There is a policy that if someone joins with the sole purpose of spamming the forums that user is removed immediately. In the case of a long time member they are given a series of private warnings before any action is taken. Because of our privacy policy we cannot discuss any of this in the forums, even with a name change. BJ
I think also that there needs to be a set of guidelines that need to be followed in regards to locking / deleting of threads.
I had a thread deleted a year ago with not a sniff of a private mail or anything as to why it had happened.
When I questioned why it had happened I was told by other members that it was up to individual moderators to do what they wanted some delete and notify by pm, some lock and notify by pm, some lock with explanation in thread, some lock with no explanation and some just delete.
BJ gave me and explanation at the time in regards to it being an OT thread but still the fact that no courtesy had been shown was what upset me the most.
http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...d.php?t=159418
And since then I have been so scarred that I haven't fallen asleep at my PC again. LOL
BTW this thread, started 19 days ago, now has an equal number of posts to the What Little Program.... thread which was started 2+ years ago.
Also came across this old thread http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...d.php?t=159431 which has some interesting thoughts from a year ago.
I just wanted to jump in and say a couple things (don't have time for more).
This is not about individuals or individual/specific instances. It would be flat out wrong, unneccessary and unproductive to get in to that. AND I might add, I do not think that is in ANY way where Katmac was going here (though some may have thought so). This is about policies, their enforcement, consistency in them, lack of (perhaps) sufficient" guidelines (for both member and mods), the way things get done/handled, and so forth. There have been problems in this area. And while I have not been personally involved in them, I have seen them and heard about them. And simply saying things like that members can use PMs or whatever to communicate their issues is not necessarily sufficient. At least has not seemed to be of late.
Another thing that I have consistently noticed in the last week is that around 3-4pm AEST which is GMT 11+ is that the number of members logged on drops dramatically yesterday including myself there were only two others logged on.
So we need to have a push for more members from the southern hemisphere or we need a few more night owls in the northern hemisphere.
You won't really turn into pumpkins at midnight you know.....
I have a friend in Warrnambool that I invited to join. She's technologically challenged, so I thought this site would really be of immense help. So far no dice though.
We love the technologically challenged, did you tell her that? We'll beat her up, did you tell her that? It's late, approach with caution!
Coming up with a set of iron clad guidelines on “rules enforcement” would be a difficult task due to the HUGE amount of variables.
Take Nix’s deleted thread regarding falling asleep at the computer for example. On one hand it was cute and funny. On the other hand it was blatantly Off Topic which is a clear violation of the AUP. Then you factor in that he’s a long term valuable member. It could be easily argued that he should have known better than to start an OT thread?!?!?
I was recently publicly chastised by a moderator at another site. I answered a new members question in the Software forum. Went to the XP forum and saw that someone else had answered the same duplicate question. I merely pointed out in the second thread that the site staff preferred that questions only be asked one time so as not to waste anyone’s time. I thought I was being helpful. The mod thought I was being rude and said so in the thread as he locked it. Not a word was said to the new member. Go figure.
Then there was the time on another site I made what I thought was a funny joke about one of the sites admins in their OT forum. I had known the guy for a couple of years. He reset my 2500 post count back to zero.
Had either one of my situations been done on a different site, they would probably been handled differently due to the difference in personalities involved. The second incident could have involved a reaction of nothing happening all the way to banishment.
So as simplistic a violation as Nix’s thread was and as good as his standing at VDR is, maybe saying nothing was a “courtesy.”
BIG drawback of frequenting this forum. I find the atmosphere very stifling. Guess thats what happens when a site is owned by a bunch of suits who epistolize from on high. A little levity never made anybody go blind or grow hair on their palms.Quote:
It could be easily argued that he should have known better than to start an OT thread?!?!?
That is no courtesy in my books. It leaves the poster and many others wondering what exactly was wrong and only increases the stuffy atmosphere as everybody is now overly concerned about saying the wrong thing. It shows arrogance and smugness on the part of those able to shut down a thread without the slightest concern for the feelings of those affected.Quote:
maybe saying nothing was a “courtesy.”
A continuing theme in this thread is the mention by many that they have carefully considered what to say in their post in this thread. This reveals that many people feel deeply about their participation in this forum. To be treated with arrogance and heavy handedness causes hurt and dismay and takes significantly from the feeling of community.
Maybe the best solution to the dilema being addressed by this thread is a complete shake up at the Moderator level. Clean them out and bring in some new blood with some fresh ideas about how to run a forum. The "old boys network" obviously is not working.
While I have not read the entire thread due to the length of when I first found it, I will say that what I have read from DrMDJ's posts are very accurate. When I first found this site several years ago, it was through a search engine. I doubt I would have found it otherwise. At the time, it was amazing to see how many members were online on a consistant basis. Postings were numerous, responses were quick (and accurate) without flame wars (although there were a few).
I don't know what it will take to keep members here. I have felt sorrow at the exudus of people. Having been forced to go to other sites looking for answers, I noticed that a great deal of those who were once VDr members and highly regarded, are now members elsewhere (typically you can find a group of them all together).
As for the search engine issue: I found it rather odd that a site dedicated to making computers easier to manage made it difficult to search the site for answers. In the past, on the main page, there was a search box located close to the top of the page. I clicked in it when I first came to the site thinking I could search the site. Turns out it was either an advertisment or something, as it took me to a Google type interface with results from every site EXCEPT VDr. I was thoroughly confused. Later, I did manage to figure out how to search VDr, but that should never have been an issue.
I apologize if this post is somewhat hard to follow, I am at work and have been interrupted roughly 100 times since first starting.
This is NOT the first thread that has mentioned the 'slow bleeding' of VDr. I remember this topic being mentioned (then deleted) over two years ago.
Ditto. To get everyone together and come up with a scenario-based AUP would be impossible. How many scenarios can one come up with? I really don't want to read a 1,000 page AUP (which would probably be the 'abridged" version anyway). Moderating is based on the AUP, common sense and, whether we like it or not, individual perception. Sometimes that perception is wrong....it just happens. On a questionable post, a good moderator will take a step back, put the ego on a shelf and ask the question: "Is this what I am perceiving it to be or could it at all possibly be something else? Is the motivation for this post what I suspect it to be? Am I over-reacting? Where is the justification for my suspicions that this turkey is blatantly challenging the AUP and/or forum courtesy? Is it a real effort to go off-topic or is it just an "aside" for the moment?" etc., etc., etc.. There are times when a mod has to act fast in order to nip it in the bud (as Barney Fife would say)...sometimes that action may appear harsh, but past experience has demonstrated that if action wasn't taken immmediately, then there would be a lot of damage to repair later. My method: After thinking it through, put a mod-edit in the questionable post...editing out if necessary the "offending' portions...put a straightforward statement in there regarding the edit (not slamming or pushing the point), then PM the person with the detailed explanation. Yes...it can still be embarrassing to the person to see that in the thread and there will always be people who will complain about it; taking it as an affront to their dignity. If so, then I will PM them again and simply request that they grow up and get over it. Odds are that nobody will even remember the incident in a day or two. I know there are sites out there that seem to have the policy of publicly slamming offenders in order to "teach" all the other members/vistors the ills and woes of going against their AUP. Wrong method. The only excuse for doing that is if the offender is really going overboard and is obviously attempting to perpetuate the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve R Jones
People just have to realize that all too often it is a matter of perception and moderators are subject to misunderstanding as much as anyone else. Hard to believe I know, but there is a human behind that title of Moderator or Administrator (or so I've heard anyway). Believe me, a good moderator, one with the right motivation, finds out real quick that it ain't no ego trip...it can be downright hard work; often having to make some gut-wrenching calls. He/she must be willing to listen and be ready to answer some hard questions regarding policies, questionable posts, etc.. Not always fun job; rewarding at times (a few times), but for the most part just work.
The words of Bistro shall end there, for he noticeth that he hath entered into the Dreaded Realm of Rambling...