RSS info here. BJ
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/dive-into-xml.html
RSS info here. BJ
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/dive-into-xml.html
Having watched this thread for a few days I knew I was going to respond but decided to mull over my response as I wanted to be able to express my opinion without any rancor and in a way that best expresses my feelings on the matter of why I have gone elsewhere.
VDr was the first computer forum that I joined. I thought that it would be a great place to exchange ideas, learn more and help people. However, it has not turned out that way. I found that my ideas were frequently dismissed as simplistic, incomplete or just wrong. Now when I'm wrong, and I do make mistakes occasionally like everybody else, I don't mind if it is pointed out to me. I am motivated by a desire to help people and do not to come here to stroke my ego and point out how clever I am. But the arrogance shown when mistakes are pointed out, or simplistic responses are dismissed started to turn me off VDr in a big way. The final straws came when a so-called moderator made his monthly drive by 3 posts pointing out how incomplete my response was in one post in such an arrogant manner that my jaw dropped. Then another mod that I corrected, as he was wrong and it was obvious to me, responded in a very strange way that I still can't fathom but by that time I had such a bad taste in my mouth that I couldn't be bothered finding out what was meant or why it was done that way. I had already joined other forums and decided that I would spend more time elsewhere and come back here when I was bored or just to see what was new.
I find that the majority of people who come to these forums don't want the mechanics of the creation of the universe explained to them, they just want the error message to go away. In many threads the more knowledgeable people begin a discussion that goes way beyond the comprehension of the user that posed the original question and carry on with their merry debate whilst forgetting the purpose of the thread. Somewhere earlier in this thread some statistics were posted about the tens of thousands of members with less than 10 posts and I feel this is a big reason why they don't come back. And you can bet if they don't come back they go elsewhere.
Its great that VDr is going to new software but I don't see that as the solution. Take your debates aside, respond to the questions of the users in a way that solves their problems without making their eyes glaze over from an overload of information and give your responses in a timely and effective manner. Don't be dismissive of others posts and if you want to have a pissing match do it by PM.
Thanks to DrMDJ for starting this thread and I would like to point out that I have the greatest respect for him and do not include him in the above comments.
RE Linda's idea on recognition/awards... If something in this arena would be desirable by many/most here, then fine. From my own standpoint it won't matter one way or the other. My only concerns would be if somehow it created things like feelings of competition, became a political thing, or caused the kind of feelings Usil mentioned.
user595212,
As I've said before, I would really not like to see a radical change in the basic character/flavor/slant of vdr. Some adjustments may be needed, but...
The real world has provided me with enough dealings/exposure to the harder core IT world. I need something like VDR I guess to keep me sane.:D ;)
It's good to see more/various members beginning to chime in. I just wanted to say "Thanks" to NanakiXIII and Leurgy for your input. It's not easy to post some of the issues we feel. Your comments help get to the core of Doc's heartfelt concerns voiced at the beginning and throughout this thread. There's still a lot of members holding back based on number of views of this thread, but maybe the dike's gonna break soon :)
That's for sure KatMac. And hearing them can be just as difficult. But if such issues exist and they are effecting vdr then getting them out on the table (in a calm, civilized, open minded way) is what needs to be done.Quote:
It's not easy to post some of the issues we feel.
Yes indeed! Well said and couldn't agree more ;)
Well put KatMac, we, all of us, cannot fix anything until we know what the issue or issues are.Quote:
Originally posted by KatMac
It's good to see more/various members beginning to chime in. I just wanted to say "Thanks" to NanakiXIII and Leurgy for your input. It's not easy to post some of the issues we feel. Your comments help get to the core of Doc's heartfelt concerns voiced at the beginning and throughout this thread. There's still a lot of members holding back based on number of views of this thread, but maybe the dike's gonna break soon :)
I am, for one, very thankful members are speaking up. :)
Im sorry Leurgy for your bad experience, just remember im only a pm away if anyone is having these types of issues. BJ
Leurgy,
First, thanks for your input and saying what you felt needed saying.
In regard to some of the things said in your second paragraph above... Without dealing specifically with your experiences, rather speaking on a more general basis, there is no question in my mind that I have been seeing and sensing (shall we say) more than just a little in the way of tensions, conflicts and such around here for a while. Some member-member, some mod-member. It has definately concerned me (and I've said so previously here). I myself have not directly been involved (if I was I didn't realize it:confused: ), but that doesn't matter. If things are such that there is, or is going to be, a negative impact on vdr then that effects me (and all of us) indirectly. And I don't take what the potential impact on vdr can be. I experienced it first hand something like four years ago here. Things got to a point where a lot of people (good people) got turned off, got so annoyed that they left. A lot of people started establishing presences at other boards, heck, even starting their own boards then. I even pulled away for a while. It took quite a while for things to even begin to recover. And we never have recovered fully from it. I really don't want to see that happen again. And my fears is that I've see indications now that give rise to feelings of deja vu.
I would like to say that only a small minority of members here have caused problems, whether it be to other members or to the staff.
There are people that like to express there feelings, no problem with that. Its when members start personal attacks on other members and staff. I dont like that one bit, which is why we are clamping down on this kind of act. Its not good for the forum and its not good for the members.
If members do have issues with either other members or the mods then a simple PM will do it, I dont see why it should be made public.
Well put, bears attention and could be easily corrected. If one is answering a post, solve the problem FIRST, then hit on the why's and wherefore's if deemed a good learning point for the person. Some will appreciate it; others will read it and NOT be interested, but still go away happy anyway that the problem was solved. One can often get a feel for the level of knowledge the inquirer has by the wording of their post. Gotta be sensitive to that. Me...I just usually assume they don't know squat until further notified. Solve the problem using the simplest terms without insulting one's intelligence. Most people who come here and other tech forums are just asking for the time, not asking for you to build them a watch.Quote:
Originally posted by Leurgy
I find that the majority of people who come to these forums don't want the mechanics of the creation of the universe explained to them, they just want the error message to go away. In many threads the more knowledgeable people begin a discussion that goes way beyond the comprehension of the user that posed the original question and carry on with their merry debate whilst forgetting the purpose of the thread.
Take your debates aside, respond to the questions of the users in a way that solves their problems without making their eyes glaze over from an overload of information and give your responses in a timely and effective manner.
To qualify: I personally love to read full explanations on why's and wherefore's, just as long as the solution is up front and not hidden cryptographically in the explanation. I'm here to learn as well as help and appreciate some of the more detailed explanations.
Absolutely. I learned from my parents years and years ago that if you have a problem with someone, draw them aside first and deal with it. If they do not respond favorably, don't perpetuate the problem by going public with it. I also learned in the Army that you use the chain of command when the above happens, not go around bad-mouthing the person to everyone you meet...that just makes you look like a fool and will get you in trouble every time. Same goes for this forum site. No profit at all to all parties concerned to flame each other. We don't give Martyr Awards here, so what's the point of carrying on, feeding the flaming, supposedly to "defend one's honor"? None. Be an adult and keep the flames to a PM and keep a mod in the loop about it.Quote:
Originally posted by Leurgy
...and if you want to have a pissing match do it by PM.
"Fire feeds fire, and the flames are eternally hungry"....Conan The Barbarian, Scene 23, Take 12.
Verily, the ramblings of Bistro have ended......(for now). :)
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/im.../2005/03/7.jpgQuote:
I also learned in the Army...
Upon reading above ramblings of Bistro, and chancing upon the tidbit that he hath served our great nation in the armed forces, into my brain promptly poppeth this imagery. Perchance it lighteneth the mood a bit ;)
Verily I say, the image was oh, so hastily done. (Hence the lack of edit finesse and overall cheeziness.)
(and mimicking Bistro-speak tain't eathy. Cross betwixt Tweety Bird and Moses.)
ROFL @ KatMac....I'm flattered.....I think.
Hey! Interesting new look to the site.... :)
Well, there you go. Congratulations VDr!!! :eek: :D
In keeping with the spirit of this thread, the enhancement of the forum's look just now.....has my vote of approval...and it is easy to read, (one of my concerns), and so far easy to navigate and use.....and a big step forward. :)
Thanks to all concerned in bringing this about. :D
poppy
Hey there are 46 guests on board at the moment and 23 members this is the most people I have seen on the forums for a while.
Are thinks looking up already ???
LOL. Like any new toy people are curious. Never lasts long though.
I just did a search in Google forand Vdr was the first link on the third page.Quote:
Computer help forum
Yesterday the same search didn't even get Vdr by the end of the 5th page.
Just did a search forand guess who was second on the list !!!!!!!!!!Quote:
PC Help Forums
Redid the previous search and VDr is now 4th on the second page.
Go you good thing !!!!!!!!!!
Looks like I'm joining the discussion late. Sorry, the traffic was murder. ;>) I ~did~ start at the top yesterday but with 400+ posts.....
I joined this forum in 2002 (I think?) along with (at the time) two other help forums. I had already been a member of *********.*** for two years previous. (The name has been changed to protect the innocent, ;>) I don't know if it's appropriate to mention.) In a thirst for more, I found and joined this forum and another help forum.
Over time, I realized that *********.*** was "moving" much faster than this one and the others. As a result, I of course drifted to the "one" the majority of the time. As a result of this activity, I haven't been back here much in three years. (I was learning more and more, and thus posting more to other areas in that board which I hadn't previously had expertise in.) I'd drop by here from time to time, but would see much hadn't changed.
As well, the queries here were "basic" (for lack of a better term) in content. ** In no way is this comment meant to inflect inferior allusion to this board or it's members. ** I feel this "question base" element though was partially due to the search engine parameters mentioned early on in this topic. The people finding this forum were all new to the PC realm. (Of course that's true all of the time though.)
I've been back here pretty well every day now for about a week or two. I have to say that of the six or eight forums I frequent, this forum, and "that other one", are my two favourites. I'm glad I made it back for the "New Look" change.
I'm also glad however, that I missed the commotion of the "bad times between participants". Being "away", I wasn't aware and found it to be rather disturbing that it has occurred. I'm sure I'd have been involved to a point. Being a "regular", you get to know who's who, and who knows what they're talking about (the heavyweights), who needs that bit of ego self gratification they find by posting, and the malicious posters. I've felt compelled several times to speak my mind over at Computing.net. (Oops! Oh well, you have a right to know where I've been.) Spoken subtlely and tactfully of course. ;>) There's no bad blood. Hence why I feel I'd have been in the fracas going on here somewhere.
A help forum should be just that. A place to get the help you require. Not a chat centre (Ughh! cringe), nor a battlefield for individuals to attack each other. If you are being discourteous or disrespectful (no matter what the perceived basis for acting that way) to either an individual or the forum, you're called into the Moderators or Administrators office to stand on the carpet and words are spoken. If this or unethical behavior persists, you are banned. I treat being on a board the same as a job. (It'd be nice to get paid for it, but ah, what the heck.) You're there doing a job, and if you're not doing it, or doing it badly, then you should be told and/or you shouldn't be participating there.
OK, enough. I haven't been back long enough to say much more than it's nice to be here, and I really hope things work themselves out.
I'll be watching. ;>)
Thanks for dropping in and giving your input Dan Penny. Injecting the humor was a nice touch, too ;)
Was thinking all the hullaballo over the new look was going to detract from this thread. Hope not for long - if we're ranking higher in searches, we better hustle and keep focused on this, eh? Have a feeling we've got lots of company coming for a visit ;)
I still say the html keywords need tweaked. I did some searches, and VDr. wasn't near the top. Keywords still count, don't they, even with the new search index feature?
I changed the keywords on the dev site, but somehow they didn't survive the transfer. I'll have to copy them over manually from the office tomorrow.
Yea, it's to be expected that the change would detract a bit (a new toy to look at and play with). But the thread will stay alive, and needs too.Quote:
Was thinking all the hullaballo over the new look was going to detract from this thread. Hope not for long
JPNYC wrote:
"The search engine issue will be greatly improved by the upgrade, which is about a week and change away. Contrary to popular belief, meta tag keywords are not rhe primary search area of spiders. The page <title> and visible content on the page, actually come 1st and 2nd."
When the User Group's webpage was updated, not having the keywords did not have any negible affect. Using Google, I did a search on "PC User Group" and the webpages that came up seemed to be ranked by the amount of substantive content and obviously the number of webpages.
I would certainly in interested in learning more about how these search engines work. But so far, adding links to substantive content seems to be the key.
Cheers,
Linda
True story there, page title, content, heading tags (H1,H2 etc.), list items so many things. Sure, keywords and meta tags still count ... but search engines change so often it's a full time job for the SEO types!
This is a good place to read up on SE's. I went to the Search Engine Seminar, where I learned a great deal about this topic. A lot of it surprised me.
what terms did you use to search ?Quote:
Originally Posted by KatMac
PC Help Forums got us 2nd on the first Google page and
Computer Help Forums has us 4th on the second page of Google
I just searched PC Help Forums on Yahoo and Vdr wasn't mentioned in the first 200 hits so I gave up looking. Same thing for Computer Help Forums.
It's not magic, well... it is if you're Bistro, I digress....
The spiders need to crawl the site before the benefit of the new forums will be realized in the search engines. In the meantime JPNYC will be putting that seminar learnin' to good use I'm sure!
Yeah, it's not like a lightswitch being turned on, it takes time for the page ranking to change.
Well I just went to Yahoo and put in Virtual Dr and still wasn't having much luck finding it ???
Did come across this through http://www.big-boards.com/highlight/126/1/ which may be of interest to the admins and mods
And since Google is the most popular search engine, it's probably why it's climbed gigher on there than say on yahoo.
Whereas a search fo Virtual Dr in Google gets us ranked 1 and 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Nix
why can i run my arrow across some of the post on the xp forum and can read the post without opening it and some i cant
Goog question.Quote:
Originally Posted by frebo
I think one of the most important key words is "technical support", add to that "computer" or "pc" and that is what I, as a new user would look for on Google. Google those two, and we are no where in immediate sight.
Those words are in there. Improved ranking doesn't happen right away. Could take a month, could take a week, but it doesn't happen overnight. The spiders need to find you, and that happens when it does. Can't do much about it.
I would probably use the term "support forum", or "pc support forum". For me the term "technical support" is too broad because it would also include various software and hardware vendor's technical support sections.
Other terms that might be used are "computer tech help" or "computer help desk."
I like the way that VDR looks but I have one question. The forum boxes have a bunch of white space (empty space) on the right hand side. This is because at the top of the page, there is one HP ad? Can this be changed? It just looks like a lot of wasted space.
Cheers,
Linda
:) ;) :o
That ad will occasionally double in length, but the width won't grow larger (occasionally smaller). It's possible that we may add some more content below it to try to balance out the page.