-
Operation Delta 3 - 002
This begins Operation Delta 3-002 in the building of BT, the third in a series of Operation Delta computers whose threads are designed to help you build a computer if you so desire. This computer will be for my use and right now we are in the aquisition stage for the various components needed. The two WD 40Gig HD's and Ram have been purchased and now the case, MOBO, CPU are being reconsidered from the original list due to the price drops and improvements that are now available over what they were.
The various members that are contributing have made this possible for no more a reason than the tremendous amount of knowledge they collectively posess and are willing to share all of us that need help.
If you have questions or need help as we go through this be sure and break in with your question or comment.
Phigo, I reread your thread to make sure I had it right.
So, any new thoughts on A MOBO that could take the place of the Abit 133BX Raid board?
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
Information
-
Well all I have to say is you'd best get that thing built before it's obsolete! ;-) Good thread.... try Tom's Hardware Guide at http://www6.tomshardware.com/mainboard/index.html. He's got some excellent info....
edit... and maybe post an updated list early in this thread of your updated components, highlighting those that have been purchased thus far....
------------------
Just 'cuz you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're still not after you!
[This message has been edited by Abhoth (edited 08-30-2001).]
-
Whoa there, Kimo Sabe https://discussions.virtualdr.com/....all depends on the CPU you want. Athlon, Pentium, cheapo used Cyrix, Super-cooled Warp23 Universal Dilithium Crystal? Pick the CPU, then a good reliable board to go with it.
-
Agree... but think he decided on a P4, but not sure... that's why I'd like to see an updated parts list.......
------------------
Just 'cuz you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're still not after you!
-
Just gotta know....does that BT stand for BIG Tex!!!!
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
-
(B)lindingly (T)hpeedy... I think. ;-)
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
-
This computer was obsolete before we made the original list that I posted at the beginning of thread 001.
Here is the list;
Two Western Digital 40 GB 7200RPM (ATA What?)
Motherboard Abit BX 133-RAID ( socket370-type)
In Win S 500 ATX 2.01 compliance Mid Tower 300watt Power supply
Intel Pentium III 866MHz FC-PGA w/256KB
RAM 128PC-133
GeForce2 based or Diamond Viper ultra series Video Card (AGP type)32MB
Modem 56K (not winmodem)
Sound Card -Sound Blaster Live series
Global Win heatsink/fan
Two Network Card
Linsky'S Router
Burner (Need Recommendations)
19" monitor
I want the most for the money spent, and if I go to something faster can I see the increase in speed say to a 1. some odd Ghz CPU. I am still not convinced that the Abit 133BX Raid is not the way to go. Maybe because I know more about it than anything else. I know there is one computer with it that runs like a top last I knew.
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
Information
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 08-30-2001).]
-
...Efforting.
So o.k., don't hate that montherboard... assuming yur using the RAID for the two drives. CPU... Using Tom's product finder I see a P3gig processor for $188... also a P4 1.5gig for about $50 less. Humm, I'll let you figure that one. And that would change the setup... if P3 is it that's cool. Running a P3 1gig here and very pleased.
CDRW... Plextor's the man on that one, opinion, yes.
Nuther opinion is Athlon.... probably more bang for the buck and DDR RAM speeds... humm.
Building can be so much fun, way much info!
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
[This message has been edited by Abhoth (edited 08-30-2001).]
-
If you want some good stability with a P3, the Asus CUSL2-C mobo comes to mind. If you want additional features, the Abit SA6R is a possibility. With any board, there are pros and cons with either one. (But an 815EP chipset board will offer some good stability with the P3). If you are going to get a sound card and vid card, it makes no sense to get a mobo with those integrated into it (unless it has other features you want/need).
-
AND... you can get an Athlon Thunderbird 1300 MHz 266MHz/256K for $104.
Real point here is that Bistro's right... CPU and MoBo... them's the guts. If you're going to spend some $$$ that's where it should go. Although VIA is coming out with a DDR MoBo for P4...
" Now that Intel is selling Pentium 4 at rather aggressive prices, all it takes to make the processor enter the mass market is a reasonably priced platform. The i850 chipset with its requirement of the expensive RDRAM is still unable to offer that. While Intel's upcoming value-chipset for Pentium 4 will initially only support the rather slow PC133 SDRAM, VIA's P4X266 is ready to bring fast DDR-support to Intel's flagship processor. "
Hummm, options galore...
Just too fun eh?
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
-
Don't see integrated sound or vid on that MoBo Bistro???? Now, if it does, then I hate it! ;-)
"The BX133-RAID features today's most advanced hardware specifications, including an onboard UDMA 33/66/100 and RAID controller, plus SoftMenu III for setting CPU parameters. SoftMenu III provides ABIT's customers the easiest and safest environment to achieve ultimate performance. With 2 USB channels, 3 DIMM slots, AGP support, and hardware monitoring, the BX133-RAID gives you the absolute best solution for the BX chipset."
oops, my bad.... you be talkin' 'bout the 815ep you mentioned. But at least it has an AGP slot for upgrades.
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
[This message has been edited by Abhoth (edited 08-30-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Abhoth (edited 08-30-2001).]
-
Yeah...Some of the mobos I've been considering for an upgrade have some real decent features. I can live with the integrated crap as long as I can turn it off. One stick in my craw are the mobos with some really great features, but have a dadblasted CNR slot included. I need that like I need a 5.25 floppy drive...
-
yup, when building there are tons of options. Will make the eyes water.... but gotta ask... CNR slot?
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
-
CNR????? AMR possibly? Audio Modem Riser here is a link about them but I do not know anyone yet who has used one... http://developer.intel.com/update/ar...ories/top2.htm
-
CNR
Acronym for Communication and Networking Riser. Developed by Intel, CNR is a riser card for ATX family motherboards that was developed in order to reduce the cost to OEMs of implementing LAN, home networking, audio and modem subsystems widely used in modern connected PCs. The CNR Specification is an open industry specification that defines a scalable motherboard riser card and interface that support the audio, modem, and network interfaces of core logic chipsets. The specification is supported by OEMs, Microsoft and silicon suppliers. The specification defines the CNR architecture for both standard and low-profile risers and includes electrical, mechanical, and thermal requirements of the riser interface. In addition to supporting current technologies such as Ethernet and analog modems, the specification can be expanded for developing technologies, such as DSL.
AMR
Short for Audio Modem Riser, an Intel specification that defines a new architecture for the design of motherboards.
AMR lets manufacturers create motherboards without analog I/O functions. Instead, these functions are placed on a separate card--with the codec chip--which plugs in perpendicular to the motherboard so that the motherboard and "riser" card form a right angle.
Separating the analog I/O functions from the motherboard means higher audio quality and reduced production delays. Prior to the AMR specification, motherboard analog I/O functions went through a lengthy FCC and international telecom certification process.
taken from webopedia
------------------
Remember, there is always something we forgot to ask.
And, it's only FREE advice!
Kind regards, Jaak
-
Oh... well thank you for the education! Have been exposed to those before... along with other odd (old) configs.... Always figured they were too FUBAR to mess with. Just old stuff creating a SNAFU...... ya know. ;-)
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
-
GG1: Ok, so amidst all the additional educational info, I got lost. Have you decided between AMD & P3/P4? Re-read the thread but not sure I can tell.
I myself am partial to the amd, not exactly sure why. Could be a childhood thing, ya see doc, it all began when... wait a minute, wrong session. Back to reality, or at least my reality.
I have an AMD and I do like it, I think ya get more bang for the buck.. Some of the things I have heard about the P4 (mostly from here have been less than positive, and my mom worked for intel for 20+ years, so I am sure there is some of my obstinate rebellious side rearing it's ugly head.
Sorry, I am begining to ramble about pretty much nothin'.
-
GG1,
It's all been discussed before (other threads), but nothing has changed to alleviate the dissapointments in performance that the P4 can display. It is highly dependent on the proper software to recognize its potential. I still believe that for typical use, with today's software, it is a processor for the future not for now. My advice is that if you want to go the Pentium route, then go for a PIII. The reductions in price on the P4 (and RDRAM) have not removed all the reasons that the P4 is not all together ready for primetime.
As for your board (and cpu, and ...), it does indeed sound like you are going (or leaning strongly) towards the side of what you are familiar and comfortable with. And I know that's largely based on the build of the QOH machine. Understandable. But the configuration used for QOH was not the only viable or suitable one at the time (there's never just one). And things have changed a lot since then. There are many alternatives that will allow you to do just as good, and better. It may slow the process while you investigate and decide, but I think you will be better for it in the long run. Besides, if it doesn't work out, Bistro has agreed to take fully responsibility. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
You're right to ask questions like will you benefit from "stepping up" on certain things (like the cpu). Excessive idle capacity/capability is a waste. I'm not talking room for growth, I'm talking excess. And a lot of people today buy excessive capacity. Hey, it's their money so more power to 'em. But they don't need it. And someone like you knows not to get trapped in to the bigger/more or latest-and-greatest is always better deal.
I saw nothing in your brief explanation of what you intend to do with this machine (original thread) that seems to require a particularly high end machine. You want something that is stable, reliable, and meets your needs with some growth room. And there are many alternatives/combinations available that will meet those needs, and hit your budget targets. But that's the beauty today. There are many viable choices. All of which one will be able to live with and never look back.
In terms of your question above about going to 1 gig vs 866... Such an increase would likely yield you nothing appreciable (to write home about) if you were also using the same fsb, and memory bus, speed. Now if you were asking about going from, say, a 850mhz T-bird running at a 100/200ddr FSB and PC133 memory to a 1gig T-bird running at 133/266DDR FSB and PC2100 memory... Here you could get a decent pop from the change/move.
More commentary than recommendations here I know. But for now I just wanted to throw these few things out.
------------------
Bookmark your post to make it easier to find.
And remember, please post back whether the problem is resolved or not.
-
Good Morming All, Continue to have problems at work with AS400 upgrade problems so may not be able to post much today.
T-bolt, I had a good plan but with all the additional info will see if there is something better for the 1000 dollars as well as better dependability, stability, and performance. Don't feel lonely about getting lost. Whenever I get hit with a large amount of information I feel the same. It just takes time to go through it. As I said before be patient and don't get in a rush. Go at your own speed. So hang in there and ask questions if you don't understand something someone said. I keep separate files on major posts by the posters name and subject so I can go back and refer to or study something as the need arises.
Maybe I should have just gone ahead and built using the original list but I didn't and I had to ask some more questions. And ya'all answered. And you have raised questions in my mind about which way to go. Now a lazy man would go with the original plan and not cause himself additional work. But I have to look at the points you have raised and now do some additional evaluations.
Me and my big mouth. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Howdy Abhoth and thanks for jumping in. Need all the help I can get.
sarkazztic, BT stands for Bistro Train in honor of their putting up with me when I found VirDR. They took it upon themselves to try and pound some knowledge into this hard head.
Bistro and DrMDJ, Very interesting comments. Thanks. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
Information
[This message has been edited by greengoose1 (edited 08-31-2001).]
-
Answer? All of the above.
The 400 acting badly eh? Been in the AS400 ops arena myself before... PC's rule the life these days though.
P4 is out, Intel is just twitchin' too much for my liking. VIA is stirring their pot MoBo-wise.
P3... a proven performer. Has familiarity on it's side. Go for the added power if you can fit it in the budget... you just don't know how much that next 'killer app' is going to need! And when I'm sitting here running Dreamweaver, Flash, chatting here while watching the latest news up in the corner and I open up that Adobe PS app I don't want problems!
AMD truely has a price and performance advantage... but with unfamiliarity comes more research. Higher bus speeds really sell me on the AMD and if I was building I'd have to go that route.
So, spend some time at Tom's Hardware Guide, good info and pulls no punches. And if all else fails, tie on a #14 to a 6x, gently land it and wait for the strike!
Life is grand, have a bitchin' weekend all!
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
-
Greengoose1...As always this mission, should you decide to accept it, is all yours....
If any of those components are fried, Train and Bistro will disavow any knowledge of you or your actions...Good Luck, GG...
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
-
What? what? a size 14 to a 6X. Must be a renegade, mosquito, adams ...... Oops wandering again.
The AS400 upgrade has now reduced us to manual work arounds including record keeping with yellow tablets and pens/pencils.
It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling you're standing at my back Bistro after that comment. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
Why me????
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
Information
-
Bistro Train mmmmm that sounds like a food based porno......Happy Friday to all..
-
Renegade or Green Drake... St. Joe in Idaho, 18 in. cutthroat. oh the joy.
So while sitting in the Bistro on the Train, headed to Greengoose CA for a little flyfishing, I was jotting a few notes on my little yellow tablet thus ensuring my data collection would not be toasted.... singin' those as400 blues.....
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
-
Nice little ode to the AS400 blues abhoth...
just had my evening ruined....I am doing some free work for a friend at work...had to strip his drive last night he has a 30 gig drive....set to 10 gigs for os and programs and 20 gigs for storage...he is a digital video capture fanatic......I get him all set up and humming machine just purrs like a kitten.....he calls me this morning and wants to do a dual boot with 98se and wants the partitions 5 gig for win2k 3 gig for 98se and 2 11gigs for storage....my company does not have a copy of partition magic in our library...so I have to start all from scratch. what a way to spend a friday night. Oh well computers are our lives right...
-
Abhoth, Ohhhhhhhhhhh??????? An 18"cutthroat? Hmmmmmmmm. You do not have an E-mail listed. And I would like to expand this fishy story, I mean fish story in greater detail, https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
What we have to go through to build a computer. Oh well someone has to do it. LOL
------------------
Seek knowledge and all else will follow
Please post back results - Press Ctl D to bookmark
Information
-
Will have to update that.... and I haven't even mentioned the 20 inch rainbows we wooly bugger outta the lakes here! ;-)
sarrkazztic, dude! Key words there, 'free work'.... oh my... have a few like that myself.... I'd say teach him to do it himself, but then you'd be over there fixing it I suppose...!
Ya know we really gotta get back to building this thing!
------------------
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!" Emo P.
-
We have some of those monster trout down here in Oregon to Abhoth.....You are correct about having to do the work at his house....he is 53 and I give him the respect he is due because he is 20 years older than I am but if he would quit installing and uninstalling etc etc. I have spent more evenings at his house repairing things than I can count...but I have also learned alot from his mistakes.
-
Abhoth
I hope you released those minnows. Watcheed a 30" rainbow get landed at Wennas Lake.
Urge to kill was present. Joker did not register it. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
-
Not sure if this is a good place but since you folks "seem" to be the experts, could I get some critique of a system I plan to build later this year?
AMD Thunderbird Athlon-C, 1.4GHz, Socket-A, 266 MHz FSB
Tyan Thunder K7
Crucial PC-2100DDR Registered
Antec SX1240 Case
Enemax EG651-VE 650W Power Supply
Viewsonic P220F Flatscreen Monitor
Sony SDT-1000 DDS4 Tape Drive (SCSI)
Iomega Jax Drive (SCSI)
Teac Floppy Drive
2 Seagate 18GB, 15000 Hard Drives (SCSI; Dual boot w/ Win98 and WinXP)
2 Seagate 73.4GB, 10000 Hard Drives (SCSI)
1 IBM 73.4GB 75GXP Deskstar (IDE for data)
Pioneer DVD RAM (SCSI)
Plextor 16/10/40a CD ROM (SCSI -- understand they are no longer mfg. SCSI drives)
SoundBlaster Live Platinum 5.1
Hercules 3D Prophet III GEForce 3 w/64MB DDR RAM
Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Speakers
ATI All-in-Wonder w/ Radeon Chip Video Capture Card
Logitec Cordless Mouse and Keyboard
APC BackUPS 900
U.S. Robotics External 56K Modem
HP OfficeJet G85xi
Cayman DSL Modem/Router
3Com Networking Hub (Linksys?)
I'll be networking 3 other computers -- Win98, WinNT, multiple laptops (Win98, WinME) -- no RAID, little game playing and lots of video interaction, e.g. TV. Big machine for a first attempt but after checking the many forums, particularly this one, I'm feeling up to the challenge.
Thanks in advance for any comments and route me somewhere else if this is an intrusion on your discussions.
-
650watt power supply!!!!! My microwave doesnt even have that much power..The list sounds pretty solid...only question I have is with the ATI All in Wonder....I thought those were being discontinued.
-
Looks good to me , but I would double check my wattage requirement by checking out the individual pieces of equipment. I am thinking you may be very close even with THAT ps.
Very nicely thought out, seems to me.
------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
-
Nice list, but I'd definitely consider a GeForce3 card instead of the ATI. Otherwise, I have a question: Do you plan on powering the entire neighborhood? Hook in a deep freezer? 650w is a bit much... https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
-
Bistro, Train, et al...
week or so ago I had that thread on coupling power supplies...
In it, I started listing the power requirements as I found them on the devices and on specification sheets I found on the www ( one of the keyword was electrical ), rather than using generalised requirement estimates.
(for the requirements one reads are often the total power used, which is good to know, but of no help to find out about required output on 3.3+5V (mobo and IO) and on 12V (motors).
why not have people here add specifications of a few components.
the thread I had would be perfect for it
this was the thread http://discussions.virtualdr.com/For...ML/004496.html
in page two 2 listed these requirements.
hi all
let's try do some rheumy antics
main concern is still the combined load on 3.3 and +5V
(on which I have 150 watt)
the configuration changed since the athlon has been put in a new motherboard, with DDR and RAID on board....
*3.3/5V & 12V peripherals
= 6 Watt- 14 Watt- scsi plexwriter (values on drive)
= 4 Watt- 08 Watt- scsi harddisk 6.4GB (values on drive)
= 2 Watt - - - - - - floppy drive (no info on 12V, so why does it have 12V??)
= 3.5 W - 08 Watt- REMOVABLE BAY
= 3 Watt- 07 Watt- 40 giga diamondmax during use
= 3 Watt- 07 Watt- 40 giga diamondmax during use
+ 3 Watt- 07 Watt- 40 giga diamondmax during use
+ 3 Watt- 07 Watt- 40 giga diamondmax during use
= 3 Watt- 07 Watt- 30 giga diamondmax during use (source maxtor.com)
- - - - - - 02 Watt- a typical fan has less than that
= 4 Watt- 10 Watt- 16X DVD normal (12v=16 Watt peak)ACER source
note; 40 Watt per hard drive PEAK on 12V during spin-up...
______________________________________________________________
drawing power off motherboard
-- 3.3V -- 5 V - - 12 V - - device ON motherboard
-- total 47 Watt---??----- Athlon 1133 load (some of them early buggers use up to 70W...)
-- total 30 Watt---??----- motherboard (guestimate, no values found, EPOX 8K7a+)
-- total 07 Watt- 04 Watt- ati Xpert 2000
-- total 12 Watt---------- guestimate on old scsi 2940AU PCI
-- total 20 Watt---------- 10W per 128MB (wouldn't DDR use less? Currently 256 DDR)
-- -- -- -- - -- -- -- -- -- got a raid/DDR board so I don't need the hotrod in there.
-- total 15 Watt -- -- -- - two NIC and modem
+ playing with the idea to put the hauppage TV primio card in it...
(sound on board)
for hard drives, I took the higher requirement during read write, because I figure that when it does that, it isn't doing a seek. would that be correct?
-seek requires a bit less than read/write-
maxtor source
excerpt = maxtor POWER REQUIREMENTS (Average)
Mode---------+12VDC+-10% - +5VDC +-5% -Power
----------------------------------------------
Spin-up (peak) 2950 mA - - - 430 mA - -41.2 w
Seek - - - - - -550 mA - - - 510 mA - - 9.5 W
Read/Write - - -600 mA - - - 550 mA - -10.0 W
Idle- - - - - - 350 mA - - - 500 mA - - 6.7 W
Standby - - - - -30 mA - - - 150 mA - - 1.2 W
this looks much LESS bleak on the combined maximum load for 3.3V and 5V than it did before, does it not?
(seems I would be only about 25W short on 3.3/5V under normal operation after I add the stuff I want to.)
and have room left on 12V under normal use
(about 80W used)
+ zero (SCSI CDROM. Currently in use in other machine. It can stay in there...)
+ TWO 7200rpm IDE drives on highpoint (future total of four)
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ HMMMMM, seems I had better get me larger drives...
= drivecoolers (on 12V)
+ 20 W second stick DDR RAM (currently 256 in one stick)
https://discussions.virtualdr.com/ but what a huge 12V peak-load at spinup...
over 260W PEAK
=================
legend
+ meant things I want to add
= meant stuff I had
===================
Remember, there is always something we forgot to ask.
And, it's only FREE advice!
Kind regards, Jaak
[This message has been edited by jtdoom (edited 09-01-2001).]
-
jaak
Sorry it took so long, but check it out.
http://www.nthgencomp.com/raid-4200.html
------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
-
Hi
everyboduy is still under the impression I still buy SCSI.
I had a need for them once (reliability while burning on machines of that era), but no longer need buy them.
btw, the system above.
WOW.
gotta be a scorcher.
------------------
Remember, there is always something we forgot to ask.
And, it's only FREE advice!
Kind regards, Jaak
-
No real need for the "average" user to consider SCSI hd's anymore. The ATA's are giving them a run for their money as far as speed/performance and are more cost effective anyway. jt: you might consider one of them thar' new-fangled 650W Enermax's...power to spare. Y-extenders won't make much of a diff at all.
-
jaak
You misread the article. It is a powered unit in which you can put your SCSI harddrives that you have. In otherwords it is a slave for your tower. Just connected by the external SCSI cable. Must admit it would take a load off your PS. What I was looking at anyway.
------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
-
Looks like a real screamer machine! https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
But i would suggest a Turtle Beach sound card rather than the SB.
------------------
Train leaving on track 5 for Anahiem,,Azusa,,and Cuukamunga.(in memory of "the man of a thousand voices")Mel Blanc
-
Ridgerunr
I ain'y either. https://discussions.virtualdr.com/
------------------
SMILE
and post back
[ Book mark this post to find it again]
