TCP/IP NetBUEI Conflict

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August 30th, 2002, 10:49 PM
cwg01

TCP/IP NetBUEI Conflict

:o
For the most part, I'm (flap cape) Super Geek!
But then I hit a fustration where I just can't seem to resolve a problem, without resorting to a hammer.
On a regular basis, the network bombs out on Network Neighborhood.
When you click on N.Nh, the computer searches FOREVER looking for the rest of the network, hell, can't even use Find Computer to find the machine I'm on!
Now this I know...
TCP/IP is needed to get at the internet, without it, the computer only sees the rest of the computers with the same workgroup name.
NetBUEI is needed to get at the intranet, without it, the computer can't even see the rest of the computers.
Workgroup names must match.
What I have set up.
All computers are hard wired to an internal IP, Gateway installed, and DNS servers are set.
WINS is disabled.
When TCP/IP is removed on the offending computer, EVEN WITHOUT RESTARTING, the computer Instantly loads the Neighborhood as soon as the network configuration box is closed.
What gives? It's a pain to work around this, if I can't get at another computer on one machine, I can usually get at that machine from another machine.
August 31st, 2002, 01:44 AM
dnez

Really this does sound like an odd problem.
Just bein curious even without network neighborhood can you ping the other internal ip's? or is it even giving you an ip? have you replaced the network stack or tried a different protocol other than netbuei?
August 31st, 2002, 03:54 AM
jdc2000

This definitely sounds like you have a TCP/IP problem somewhere. As to where and how to fix it - that will be lots of fun to track down. I have occassionally experienced similar problems and the only solution that I found after trying everything else was to re-load Windows on the offending PC.
August 31st, 2002, 04:41 AM
dangerous

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My LAN runs fine and I don't have any NetBEUI protocols. I wonder if you need them? They slow down the system and make it more vulnerable to hackers.

I have a guide for peer to peer network problems that has never failed to fix. This guide was posted a few years ago by some nice soul.
August 31st, 2002, 09:11 AM
DrMDJ

As dangerous said, Netbeui is not necessary to access and/or share resources on the local network (though it is not true by default that netbeui will slow things down, and doesn't necessarily open up any doors to hackers if things are configured right). But as far as TCP/IP goes, it's tough to say for sure without more info (including OSes involved) what the configuration problem might be or how to correct it.

That being said... It sounds like TCP/IP may be set to be used as the preferred (higher priority) protocol for local connectivity (ie. Client for MS Networks, File and Print Sharing) over Netbeui. And because you have hard coded dns and gateway servers (likely not within your local network) you have a situation where it can't resolve local names/addresses (using TCP/IP). When you delete TCPIP, Netbeui moves up to become the preferred (only in this case) protocol so local names/addresses can then be resolved. If what I'm saying (guessing) is correct then look at setting Netbeui as the preferred/higher-priority (or only) protocol bound to the Client for MS Networks and File and Print sharing. How/where this is done depends on the OSes.
August 31st, 2002, 10:43 AM
cwg01

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally posted by DrMDJ
That being said... It sounds like TCP/IP may be set to be used as the preferred (higher priority) protocol for local connectivity (ie. Client for MS Networks, File and Print Sharing) over Netbeui.

Ahhh, errr, hmmm. Win98SE.
And Are you referring to the Checkbox under the Advanced Tab in either of the configuration Boxes?
August 31st, 2002, 01:03 PM
DrMDJ

You can try unchecking that (and making sure the one for Netbeui is checked). But it will probably be better (and more productive) to just 1) go in to the bindings tab for TCP/IP and uncheck the boxes for Client for MS Networks and for File and Print Sharing, 2) go in to the bindings tab for Netbeui and check the boxes for Client for MS Networks and for File and Print Sharing.
August 31st, 2002, 02:29 PM
JJON2121

cwgo1,

Some of the replies above have some erroneous information. Setting up a network with netbui is VERY secure since netbui is not routable. DrMDJ is correct in his last post. You were also correct in your statement that tcp/ip is needed for the internet. Your second statement that netbui is needed for the local intranet is not correct.

Many networks must use tcp/ip for their local intranet since netbui uses network name for identification. If a local intranet has several servers or layers of networks, then netbui will not work.
However, this makes netbui ideal for a local network since netbeui is completely invisible to the internet.

You should unbind "client for microsoft networks" and "file and print sharing " from all of your tcp/ip protocols. It is not needed for the internet. You should even do this if you use tcp/ip only. However, VERY IMPORTANT, "client for microsoft networks" must be bound to a protocol or it will go away. If I remove netbeui for my ethernet adapter, I usually leave netbeui for the dial-up adapter bound to accomplish this. It should look something like this:

Client for Microsoft Networks
Dial-Up Adapter
Realtek RTL8139(A/B/C/8130) PCI Fast Ethernet NIC
NetBEUI -> Dial-Up Adapter
NetBEUI -> Realtek RTL8139(A/B/C/8130) PCI Fast Ethernet NIC
TCP/IP-> Dial-Up Adapter
TCP/IP-> Realtek RTL8139(A/B/C/8130) PCI Fast Ethernet NIC
File and printer sharinq for Microsoft Networks

In the above scenario. netbui runs your local network and is invisible to the internet. Tcp/ip allows all of your machines to communicate with the internet.

As for your tcp/ip problem, make sure that all of your machines have different ip numbers assigned.
September 1st, 2002, 10:19 PM
BC3

Good info here.

BC3
September 7th, 2002, 09:04 AM
cwg01

Quote:

Originally posted by JJON2121
cwgo1,
Some of the replies above have some erroneous information.

Isn't that always true? ;)

Quote:

Your second statement that netbui is needed for the local intranet is not correct.

:o

Quote:

You should unbind "client for microsoft networks" and "file and print sharing " from all of your tcp/ip protocols. It is not needed for the internet. You should even do this if you use tcp/ip only. However, VERY IMPORTANT, "client for microsoft networks" must be bound to a protocol or it will go away.

Except that I get an error message to the effect that "(I forgot what) must be installed, do you want to install one now?" After a hard "think", I said no, and the problem hasn't re-appeared in the test machine anymore. So I'll probably do the rest of them.

Quote:

... different ip numbers assigned.

Unless the machine in question is not to have Internet access, accomplished by removing the TCP/IP. Though on paper I still set a number to that machine in I needed to reinstall TCP/IP on it.
The reason I thought that NetBUEI was required for intranet is because I uninstalled it on one machine and it no longer appears in the NetNeigh.
Is it possible to setup parts of this so I _don't_ have to pick a number? i.e. how do I use "Obtain an IP address automatically" and "Use DHCP for WINS resolution"?
Is this something which requires a server? Or is it something I really want to bother with?
September 7th, 2002, 12:47 PM
Pakrat

Ok... I'm going to bet that the reason NN is slow or doesn't find any other computers is that it's relying on NetBIOS over TCP/IP. It may fail and not try to use NetBEUI. I have not had even 50% luck with NetBIOS over TCP/IP, but some have had better luck.

Just change the bindings so that NetBEUI is used for File and Print Sharing.

"Is it possible to setup parts of this so I _don't_ have to pick a number?"

Yes, you have that part right... He was just mentioning that so you don't have problems. But you would get an error message if you had identical IPs.

"Is this something which requires a server? Or is it something I really want to bother with?"

No, you will not need a server, though it may make it easier (WINS Server). Just a bigger hassle for two computers. This is up to you if you want to bother with it.

Hey, do you have any firewall software running?
Have you tried to connect to the other computer with START-RUN-\\ip.ip.ip.ip?
September 7th, 2002, 02:45 PM
cwg01

Quote:

Originally posted by Pakrat
Just change the bindings so that NetBEUI is used for File and Print Sharing.

Which is something I'm now undertaking, but why is the silly thing informing me with that error message:
You have not selected any drivers to bind with, would you like to select one now?
The only bindings it shows is:
Client for Microsoft Networks
F&P sharing.
And these are bound in NetBEUI. Grump, grump.

Quote:

No, you will not need a server, though it may make it easier (WINS Server). Just a bigger hassle for two computers. This is up to you if you want to bother with it.

HA! we're talking a small office network here, 11 machines. If it will make my network more 'clean' I would use it. As is, I _KNOW_ I need a router, the :mad: internet stream SHARES the studio feed, which means I really need a router AND two more cable runs. Right now EVERYTHING'S jumping!
http://www.wtix690.com/wtix.asx

Quote:

Hey, do you have any firewall software running?
Have you tried to connect to the other computer with START-RUN-\\ip.ip.ip.ip?

Firewall? Why, my network may cause a computer to burn? ;)
Yes, everything firewalled with several layers, topmost being that any internet connect is proxied through my gateway, all machine present to the outside world, (currently) 66.135.15.9, inbound 'attacks', not having an outbound translation, simply gets absorbed by the gateway, hey, I'm stealthed. (According to Steve Gibson). Which is good when you stop and realize that I _DO_ have a bound IP address connecting from the inside to the outside, that :mad: media server!
And no, can't start an IP.
http://www.wtix690.com/Fun/vampire.gif The server does have a different workgroup name than the rest of the network, the only machine which 'sees' it is a w2k machine, whose 'primary' workgroup is the main office network.
September 7th, 2002, 03:16 PM
Newt

cwg01 - just to add another layer of complexity to this interesting thread.

You could easily set static IP addresses for all your LAN PCs and put a hosts file on each with a complete list. Fast and pretty bullet-proof of having all the PCs able to locate the others. Since they all check for hosts before trying other resolution methods, it's gotta work. Just be careful since 9X wants the file one place and the various NT flavors another while NIX systems want yet another.

As to speed issues with NetBeui - on an 11 PC network, I completely agree you won't see any serious speed issues. But since it uses broadcasts for nearly everything, you will see lots more traffic than if you were using TCP/IP or even IPX/SPX where only the printers do much broadcasting.

Security issues with file/print sharing enabled - since I read you are using NAT, I really don't see how there would be any external threat from having these areas open. If anyone can cite specifics, I'd love to find out about them though.

NetBeui is nice in that it is automatic. Nice if you want to use a non-routable protocol rather than configuring your routers. But certainly not necessary in your enviornment from what I have read about it.

BTW - if you are using hosts files for TCP/IP name resolution and DNS for the internet (no other choice there), you can disable NBT (NteBT, NetBios over TCP/IP) on all the systems since it won't be needed.
September 7th, 2002, 05:11 PM
markp62

Quote:

Which is something I'm now undertaking, but why is the silly thing informing me with that error message:
You have not selected any drivers to bind with, would you like to select one now?
The only bindings it shows is:
Client for Microsoft Networks
F&P sharing.
And these are bound in NetBEUI. Grump, grump.

Ignore that doom message and select no. Leave them bound to NetBEUI. You should be fine there. Your NetBios ports will be closed to the internet this way, and open to your intranet.